Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)

[Krugerrand]

Could someone who lives near robe900 PLEASE arrange to meet with him and let him experience AP for himself

Um...no! He sounds like an irrational person, which suggests he’d fall into the ‘avoid at all costs’ category my parents warned me about when I was 4.

 

[thegruf]

It was not following any car, there were no cars in visible distance in front of this car.

look I know you're new here and you're upset as Tesla, but please just stop stating stuff as fact when there simply is no evidence to support it

 

[jelloslug]

It's not complicated folks, that you don't detect something isn't proof that it isn't there.

So you are saying that the most likely course of events (no hands on the wheel) has the same probability as multiple, simultaneous system failures (AP, steering, and brake system)?

 

[Yedsla]

I would like to know what percentage of those 200 daily AP trips are manually disengaged in that area. I suspect is going to be a higher than normal number.
Also I would like to know if Tesla analyzes areas that have higher than normal AP disengage and acts on it. I was under the impression this was the case.

 

[robe900]

No, I drive a car that auto-steers and I’m glad it’s not as good as auto-pilot. It veers off but sticks to general steering-wheel orientation, if it can’t see the lines. It doesn’t go left steer into the barrier.

Um...no! He sounds like an irrational person, which suggests he’d fall into the ‘avoid at all costs’ category my parents warned me about when I was 4.

 

[alcibiades]

So you are saying that the most likely course of events (no hands on the wheel) has the same probability as multiple, simultaneous system failures (AP, steering, and brake system)?

That's not even close to anything I said. You're clearly upset about something, and I'm sorry to hear it.

 

[Krugerrand]

What about recalls, still driver fault, huh ?

What about lawnchairs?

 

[croman]

No. If your brakes fail it’s just as likely your fault for not maintaining them.

So I can fix AP myself? Stop with the nonsense.

 

[jelloslug]

That's not even close to anything I said. You're clearly upset about something, and I'm sorry to hear it.

So what exactly are you trying to say?

 

[Krugerrand]

So I can fix AP myself? Stop with the nonsense.

Another irrational person for the list. Dude, don’t use the AP outside of its intended purpose and remain attentive when driving that way AP could change your car into Santa’s sleigh and you’d still arrive alive. Take your own advice and stop with the nonsense.

 

[alcibiades]

So what exactly are you trying to say?

That you're dishonest.

 

[Kant.Ing]

It also suggest that had the barrier been fixed, we probably wouldn't be talking about this right now.

Unfortunately, resetting the barrier might not help. To a Model X weighing 2,500kg travelling at 70mph (maybe even faster since no braking), the crash attenuator is no better than a 10-inch memory foam. Below is a video (at 8:50) for 900kg and 1300kg cars hitting an attentuator at 50mph, the car in the video is light so the attentuator improperly bounces the car backward. However, the Model X is so heavy and I can imagine there is no way to bounce even from a restored attentuator. All the resulting force has no way to go but up! Not only the barrier ripped the car wide open loosening everything to the dashboard, the impact also created a huge upward lift, which then flips the car spitting out its guts, sends the driver to the panoramic windshield, and when the car flipped halfway upside down, both a-pillars maybe were crushed there and left the windshield and the rear view mirror (not sure about a dashcam) on the tarmac, some other cars hit it again and again, and finally completes its flipping approaching the barrier. I wonder if both a-pillars were already crushed at the impact.

EDIT: Any responsible driver should not use the attenuator as a lifesaver.

 

[bonnie]

No, I drive a car that auto-steers and I’m glad it’s not as good as auto-pilot. It veers off but sticks to general steering-wheel orientation, if it can’t see the lines. It doesn’t go left steer into the barrier.

Okayyyyy ... but you haven't been driving a car with autopilot, so I'm a little puzzled as to how you can state ridiculous things like saying it would 'left steer into the barrier'.

1) You have no experience with autopilot, and 2) no one in a position to know how the accident occurred has even implied it did that.

 

[croman]

Um...no! He sounds like an irrational person, which suggests he’d fall into the ‘avoid at all costs’ category my parents warned me about when I was 4.

Name calling people indicates your parents didn't instill very good values.

 

[MXWing]

Unfortunately, resetting the barrier might not help. To a Model X weighing 2,500kg travelling at 70mph (maybe even faster since no braking), the crash attenuator is no better than a 10-inch memory foam. Below is a video (at 8:50) for 900kg and 1300kg cars hitting an attentuator at 50mph, the car in the video is light so the attentuator improperly bounces the car backward. However, the Model X is so heavy and I can imagine there is no way to bounce even from an extended attentuator. All the resulting force has no way to go but up! Not only the barrier ripped the car wide open loosening everything to the dashboard, the impact also created a huge upward lift, which then flips the car spitting out its guts, sends the driver to the panoramic windshield, and when the car flipped halfway upside down, both a-pillars maybe were crushed there and left the windshield and the rear view mirror (not sure about a dashcam) on the tarmac, some other cars hit it again and again, and finally completes its flipping approaching the barrier. I wonder if both a-pillars were already crushed at the impact.

It's not helpful to theorize something like this. It's probably in Tesla's best interest to recreate the crash with the barrier intact somewhere at least privately to see what would happen.

 

[MXWing]

Okayyyyy ... but you haven't been driving a car with autopilot, so I'm a little puzzled as to how you can state ridiculous things like saying it would 'left steer into the barrier'.

1) You have no experience with autopilot, and 2) no one in a position to know how the accident occurred has even implied it did that.

Half the posts or more in this thread would be gone if they didn't meet the standard of

Tesla owner with AP2 experience.

 

[bonnie]

Half the posts or more in this thread would be gone if they didn't meet the standard of

Tesla owner with AP2 experience.

Fact.

 

[Tes99]

Now I feel better about buying my Kia. First the massive recall of over 100K cars and now this. Maybe I'll buy one in a few years when they've had time to reflect and understand how to build these cars safely.

 

[e-FTW]

In fact it's clear that I have a better understanding of the "reality" of this accident than you, yet you are still commenting.



Since the vehicle hit the barrier straight on and not at an angle it's obvious that there was no attempt by the car to "bump into the barrier". You keep trying to come up with the least likely scenarios for some reason...

Occam's razor - Wikipedia

 

[timvracer]

I am totally fine (while I may not agree) with a rational argument that there needs to be more clear education and expectations setting around AP. That said, not sure what you mean by my 6 second logic. If what you are saying is that it bad things can happen much faster than that, I agree with that too.

I am even fine with those who attribute some amount of blame on Tesla if they can show that indeed there is not enough warnings or expectation setting. I imagine a court will decide that.

I am not so fine with those calling for abolishment of AP (which is safer than non-AP overall), or major changes to AP -- and yeah, that is probably my agenda, because I get so much utility out of it. It is also clear that some here (not the poster I am responding too) are just on an irrational tirade of anger or justification of their prior points of view (before the data emerged). Most on this board though, have been very helpful and thoughtful.

Thousands of people die every year in auto accidents, it is not possible to make changes to stop all of those deaths, so the argument that "one death is too many" is emotionally true, but pragmatically unactionable. (again, from other posts, not the one I am responding to)

Nobody has personal agenda here. We all agree to that AP technology need to be advanced but at what cost? Unfortunately, most drivers don’t understand the limitations as much as you do. They put trust in the AP because Tesla has advertised it in a way that drivers feel it can make your driving almost autonomous. Tesla should say that “AP can fail can cause death”. Because that’s what has happened. Hopefully, that will make people more attentive.

Moreover, on your 6 second logic, it absolutely is not enough time. If you drive on AP, you see how many times you get warnings. You get used to it. And then one real dangerous one happens, couple of second is already passed. You have 4 second to understand the situation and react to it. You need special training. Do not assume every driver to have the same level of motor skills and technology understanding as you do. Most of them buying the car assuming it will prevent such situations and not cause them.