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Model X tromps Model 3 AWD in the snow

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Aug 27, 2018
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I had X-Ice 3 on my Model 3 Stealth and Nokian’s R2 SUV on my Jeep Summit. I always felt the Jeep did better in just about any slick condition. It wasn’t the tires.

Now I have a FWD Chevy Volt with X-Ice 3 and a Model X with the Tesla 19” Snow package. Pirelli Scorpion Winter.

It always kind of bothered me how the Model 3 would initially spin its rear tires before the front would engage. This weekend I got a chance to try out both.

The Model X is an absolute tank in the snow. I’ve had Jeep’s (GC) with all types of drive trains and Audi Quatro’s. This beats them all. The Model 3 is probably the lowest of all AWD’s I’ve had. It barely eeks out FWD cars I’ve had with snows.

Tesla needs to allow turning off it’s “eco” RWD bias to fix it. I’m sure it would be fine then. Until then it’s just not that great in slick conditions. For a RWD car it probably does great compared to other RWD cars. But compared to most good AWD systems it just doesn’t measure up. I’m sure a Model 3 AWD will propel you forward with snows in the snow. But the rear end constantly tries to break lose. The Model X does not. I assume Model S doesn’t either.

I was worried with the Raven update that X might start to act more like a 3 in the snow. Luckily it does not.

I was worried the FWD Volt would break lose in snow because you can make the front wheels spin on dry payment. But in the snow it behaved as expected and did quite well. Would even give Model 3 AWD a run for it’s money.
 
That is one confusing post. mixing TM3, Jeep Summit, TMX, and Chevy Volt. "X-Ice 3" are tires?

Permanent motors are favored (primarily used) wherever they are (front or rear).

IhCgp68.jpg
 
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That is one confusing post. mixing TM3, Jeep Summit, TMX, and Chevy Volt. "X-Ice 3" are tires?

Permanent motors are favored (primarily used) wherever they are (front or rear).

IhCgp68.jpg

Well the Model X Raven doesn’t spin the front tires to get going. I don’t think the Model X biases it’s permanent front motor like a Model 3 permanent rear motor does. If you know of Video tests that show Model Raven biases the front I’d love to see it. There are videos that show Model 3 does bias rears. And Videos that show the preRaven X does not. I was worried what the Raven might do.

Yes X-Ice 3 (Michelin Snow tire) is a tire.

Order of confidence

Model X (Raven)
Jeep Summit (Very close to Raven)
Model 3 AWD
Volt FWD (very close to Model 3 AWD)

All the tires were good. But X-Ice sure can be squirmy on dry pavement. Might need some break in and colder temps.

Extremely happy with the 19” Pirelli Scorpion Winter tires. I hope they last. I like the 19” wheel better than 20” as well.
 
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Well the Model X Raven doesn’t spin the front tires to get going. I don’t think the Model X biases it’s permanent front motor like a Model 3 permanent rear motor does. If you know of Video tests that show Model Raven biases the front I’d love to see it. There are videos that show Model 3 does bias rears. And Videos that show the preRaven X does not. I was worried what the Raven might do.
...
No videos but empirical from custom cables and ScanMyTesla (SMT) Android app. I have a "X - AWD 2018-" so induction motor in the front and rear. I've had SMT for a while. My son has a "3 - AWD" and over Thanksgiving we installed a cable and did comparative testing with SMT. It clearly showed the bias to his rear perm motor. It really only used the front induction motor during hard accel. Otherwise during moderate accel or regen braking it only used the perm rear.

Then last night I saw the below for a "X - AWD 2019+ Raven" on the SMT FB page ... so just the opposite of my son's TM3.

R. W.: I find it more interesting that my Raven runs almost 99% on the front Motor. Only on harder acceleration the rear motor comes in. That is in Germany at even 100 mph. ...

IhCgp68.jpg
 
No videos but empirical from custom cables and ScanMyTesla (SMT) Android app. I have a "X - AWD 2018-" so induction motor in the front and rear. I've had SMT for a while. My son has a "3 - AWD" and over Thanksgiving we installed a cable and did comparative testing with SMT. It clearly showed the bias to his rear perm motor. It really only used the front induction motor during hard accel. Otherwise during moderate accel or regen braking it only used the perm rear.

Then last night I saw the below for a "X - AWD 2019+ Raven" on the SMT FB page ... so just the opposite of my son's TM3.



IhCgp68.jpg

I have both TM-Spy and SMT available, I've not run it all that much. I'll have to look closer. Now I have a purpose ;)

What exactly do you look at to tell you it's FWD biased. I know I saw both motors running but I didn't look to closely at the ratio or try to correlate with how hard I was accelerating.

The Model 3 definitely felt RWD biased in the snow. The Model X Raven did not feel like it. But I will have a look using the apps myself ASAP.

There might be differences with Performance and Non Performance as well. Mine is Non Performance.

Thanks.
 
1) SMT Perf tab.
2) Record (lower right red dot)
3) 0-60 then regen down to 0 or whatever.
4) Cruse at a steady state then 40-60 full accel then regen down to 0 or whatever.
5) DriveSync is super handy to auto upload to your google acct - link here on SMT site: scan my tesla - Reccommended software
6) Use DatPlot or some other tool. I just started using DatPlot and it is great.
DatPlot -- see my post
Here: Vendor - Scan My Tesla, a CANBUS reader for Android
And Here: Vendor - Scan My Tesla, a CANBUS reader for Android
 
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1) SMT Perf tab.
2) Record (lower right red dot)
3) 0-60 then regen down to 0 or whatever.
4) Cruse at a steady state then 40-60 full accel then regen down to 0 or whatever.
5) DriveSync is super handy to auto upload to your google acct - link here on SMT site: scan my tesla - Reccommended software
6) Use DatPlot or some other tool. I just started using DatPlot and it is great.
DatPlot -- see my post
Here: Vendor - Scan My Tesla, a CANBUS reader for Android
And Here: Vendor - Scan My Tesla, a CANBUS reader for Android

OK, tried it tonight. I'm not doing 0-60 on snow covered streets and my regen is 75% limited.

But looking real time it looks like the Rr/Fr torque Bias is around 60%. Which jives with Rear Torque being higher. That looks like rear is getting more Bias. But not too much. Seems about right to me. What were the numbers for Model 3?

Chill vs Standard seemed about the same. This is on slick snow. On dry it might bias differently. And it might be wildly different the first fraction of a second (dry or slick). Model 3 felt like eternity that rear would spin before front griped. It was always confusing because to get the front to grip, I'd often goose it to get the front to bite, which changed the bias. If you held steady the front would kick in.

Also note that the car knows it has 19" wheels, which it might assume are snow tires and might change things too.

I have not figured out how to view recorded data yet with SMT. I found the logs for TM-SPY but they seem rather raw and not user readable, just hex values.
 
But looking real time it looks like the Rr/Fr torque Bias is around 60%. Which jives with Rear Torque being higher. That looks like rear is getting more Bias. But not too much. Seems about right to me. What were the numbers for Model 3?

Here is one graph from DatPlot.
~300 kW peak total being used accelerating from 0-70 mph.
~100 kW (1/3) being used by the front induction motor and
~200 kW (2/3) being used by the rear permanent motor.

~75 kW peak being regen from 70-0 mph.
0 kW being regained from the front induction motor and
~75 kW being regained from the rear permanent motor.

61olFv7.jpg
 
Here is one graph from DatPlot.
~300 kW peak total being used accelerating from 0-70 mph.
~100 kW (1/3) being used by the front induction motor and
~200 kW (2/3) being used by the rear permanent motor.

~75 kW peak being regen from 70-0 mph.
0 kW being regained from the front induction motor and
~75 kW being regained from the rear permanent motor.

61olFv7.jpg

I think my Raven is doing similar. When I talk of rear bias issues in slick snow on Model 3 vs Model X I’m talking 0-20mph tops. Looking at your nice chart it looks like close to 50-50 split up to about 15 mph.

Now there have been comments / complaints of Model 3 at cruising speeds as well but I never notice that to be much of a problem. The initial start was the the problem.
 
I think my Raven is doing similar. When I talk of rear bias issues in slick snow on Model 3 vs Model X I’m talking 0-20mph tops. Looking at your nice chart it looks like close to 50-50 split up to about 15 mph.

Now there have been comments / complaints of Model 3 at cruising speeds as well but I never notice that to be much of a problem. The initial start was the problem.

This if 45 mph to 70 mph in 5 mph increments via the wheel. NO front motor usage.

qAydioq.jpg
 
Did you watch the video? It was really great for showing several aspects of the front and rear motors working. Even at the end it shows up and down snow/slick hills.

I watched about half. But his car isn't Performance Model 3. Sorry did he do track mode too?
I've watch many of his Video's, he's great. He reminds me of a co-worker that looks and sounds exactly like him, LOL.

I still like the graphs way more than watching Video.

I don't even have Model 3 any more. Only Raven X. I can see for myself what Raven X does.
At this point I'd definitely would have pulled console and tapped in for CANBus on Model 3.

At this point I'm just curious what Track Mode would do. Especially where I never tried it in snow. I think I didn't get until Winter was almost over. Mine was a Performance Stealth which got it later.
 
I was reading this thread because we have a Mammoth snowboarding trip coming up. But questions to those who know better:

1. Is there a "better" setup when you compare the PMSR motor upfront versus the back? I.e. Raven X/S (pmsr in front) versus awd model 3 (pmsr in back). Better could be anything, e.g. better range or better acceleration. Or no significant difference?
 
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Not sure what the magic is, but our X performs far better in the snow and off roading than any of my previous 4 Grand Cherokees ever did.

It is amazingly sure footed in limited traction situations. Never drove anything that did as well on snow packed or loose snow roads.

There is just something about the ultra smooth application of torque that makes it easily move forward.

I do not use it for heavy rock crawling, but often go into the back country along unimproved roads. It is remarkable.

Raven seems to be slightly better than my previous 75X, but the main advantage for me is the additonal range between charges.
 
Not sure what the magic is, but our X performs far better in the snow and off roading than any of my previous 4 Grand Cherokees ever did.

It is amazingly sure footed in limited traction situations. Never drove anything that did as well on snow packed or loose snow roads.

There is just something about the ultra smooth application of torque that makes it easily move forward.

I do not use it for heavy rock crawling, but often go into the back country along unimproved roads. It is remarkable.

Raven seems to be slightly better than my previous 75X, but the main advantage for me is the additonal range between charges.

I had 5 Grand Cherokees. 1994, 2003, 2014, 2015, 2017 and I agree. When I had the Model 3 AWD, My Jeep was still king of the snow covered road, unfortunately. But it has now been dethroned. The X tows better than Jeep too. My 2017 Summit was still a wee bit quieter. I'd love to have compared them side by side in the same conditions with the same tires.

Also keep in Mind that on most of my Jeeps the front to Back differential is effectively "Open" (AWD) or "Closed" (4-Lo).
The Tesla's can control that very differently.

The Jeep was a BEAST in 4-Lo. But you can't take it on dry pavement in 4-Lo.

If you got a V8 (which I never did) you had the option of a eletronic locking rear differential (older ones could lock the front too). Those are the rock climbing Jeeps. And no, the Model X can't do that. But Plaid, just might. But the Jeeps were brute force traction by locking diffs.

But for normal driving, bad weather, rough back roads the Model X is really good.
 
I was reading this thread because we have a Mammoth snowboarding trip coming up. But questions to those who know better:

1. Is there a "better" setup when you compare the PMSR motor upfront versus the back? I.e. Raven X/S (pmsr in front) versus awd model 3 (pmsr in back). Better could be anything, e.g. better range or better acceleration. Or no significant difference?

The problem is Tesla is using the more efficient motor as much as possible where ever it may be mounted. On the super efficient Model 3 it was designed around being the primary motor in the Rear of all Model 3 configurations. And they use it (often exclusively) completely independent of driving conditions. Tesla saw (or planned) an opportunity to improve Model X/S but putting a more efficient motor in the Front. And those cars are heavily biased in the front just as much as Model 3 is in the rear. I'm not sure if it's the exact same motor or not and was an easy retro fit. Or a new motor. If it was a new motor I'm kind of surprised they didn't put in the rear. Maybe this was the reason. It may not matter because all S/X are now AWD (and cruising on front or rear doesn't matter in good traction situations). But Model 3 still includes RWD (the efficiency king) is they want the efficient motor in the back on Model 3.

All this efficiency is not optimal for slick conditions and users should be allowed to give up efficiency for a true 4 wheels get torque in all modes of propelling the vehicle (slow easy start, hard start, cruising, gentle passing, punching it while cruising).