Model X vs Audi E-tron in Europe

[vortexz]

Hi everyone ! Haven't been active on tho forum for a while now and wanted to express my opinion about the new Audi E-Tron vs the MX
I belive Audi has finally made a worthy competitor for the MX, at least in Europe.I understand this is a Tesla fan base forum, but before starting to bash me in the head, i'm not saying that the Audi E-tron is necesarily better, but at least a worthy competitor. And actually, this might not be a bad thing for Tesla at all, as more worthy competitors are on the market and coming from legacy automakers, they will be forced to improve they current cars.
Why do I belive Audi E-tron is the first worthy competitor and what makes it such ?

Model X 75D costs 80.6800EURO in Europe, without taxes and shipping included, adding taxes and fees and shipping you will have a price of almost 100.000 EURO

Audi E-tron starts at 79.900 EURO WITH TAXES AND SHIPPING INCLUDED ! What will the E-tron offer over the MX, at a lower price ?
1.It has a 400 km WLTP range , which might actually be a little more than the MX 75D, provided by a 95KW battery vs 75KW batter.
2.in my opinion Audi will have a much better build quality as german automakers are very well known for solid build quality.
3.The interior is much better build quality, unlike the MX's interior which we all know is spartan and needs a major update
4.This is a real SUV, not a mini-van
5.IMO, it is also looking better than the MX, I never liked the MX design except the FWDs.

All these with a much cheaper starting price of "just" 79.900 EUR compared to 100.000 EUR by the MX

By Finally having a worthy competitor I belive Tesla is finally starting to achieve it's main goal of pushing other car manufacturers to start coming from behind and go fully electric, and by this they are only increasing EV adoption.

The other car manufacturers are starting to make their moves, and I belive it's soon time for Tesla to make the next big move and push the game forward once again.They could make that by improving the base version of the MX or by lowering the price

What do you guys think ?

 

[nilspjac]

I say it is about time Audi got into the electric game, but I'm not that impressed. I don't think it is a worthy competitor, it is too little, too late. Your points:
1. The X75D can reach 400km, but let's say 375. 375 on 75KWh vs. 400 on 90KWh? The E-tron seems to be at least 10% less efficient? And that is on paper, before owners start reporting in.
2. Could be, but we don't know until we see the finished product in consumers hands.
3. Nah, this is just personal preference/opinion. I much prefer the simpler/buttonless design.
4. What? Please be more specific.
5. Again, personal preference. It looks good, but is that because it just looks like just another SUV?

Other points:
1. Does it support over-the-air updates? Doesn't seem like it. Audi is sticking to "get the car to the dealership" model.
2. No super-charger network. Granted, will improve over time, but it will take time. (Most fast chargers now are 50KW, taking FOREVER to charge 90KWh.)
3. Limited self-driving potential. Model X will continuously improve, e-tron will probably not. Again, the old model, if you want "that", you have to buy next years model.

That said, I agree that it is great to have Audi in the game. I'm sure a few Audi fans (and others) who would never buy a Tesla will get this car, so a win for the environment and electric motoring in general.

But there is nothing here that makes me regret my choice in ordering the X. (Except maybe the HUD. )

 

[wdolson]

Just FYI, the eTron is more a competitor to the Chevy Bolt than the Model X. The Bolt and eTron are almost exactly the same dimensions with the same cargo space. The Model X is much larger.

The eTron is about 2X the price of the Bolt. Obviously the eTron must have nicer trim, but is it worth twice the price?

 

[vortexz]

I say it is about time Audi got into the electric game, but I'm not that impressed. I don't think it is a worthy competitor, it is too little, too late. Your points:
1. The X75D can reach 400km, but let's say 375. 375 on 75KWh vs. 400 on 90KWh? The E-tron seems to be at least 10% less efficient? And that is on paper, before owners start reporting in.
2. Could be, but we don't know until we see the finished product in consumers hands.
3. Nah, this is just personal preference/opinion. I much prefer the simpler/buttonless design.
4. What? Please be more specific.
5. Again, personal preference. It looks good, but is that because it just looks like just another SUV?

Other points:
1. Does it support over-the-air updates? Doesn't seem like it. Audi is sticking to "get the car to the dealership" model.
2. No super-charger network. Granted, will improve over time, but it will take time. (Most fast chargers now are 50KW, taking FOREVER to charge 90KWh.)
3. Limited self-driving potential. Model X will continuously improve, e-tron will probably not. Again, the old model, if you want "that", you have to buy next years model.

That said, I agree that it is great to have Audi in the game. I'm sure a few Audi fans (and others) who would never buy a Tesla will get this car, so a win for the environment and electric motoring in general.

But there is nothing here that makes me regret my choice in ordering the X. (Except maybe the HUD. )

1.It's less efficient, but bigger battery and cheaper price.
2.It will be, it will be Audi build quality !
3.You preffer it, but it's not better.
4.YOu know what I mean
5.Many people complained about the boring MX design, the E-tron looks better

and, it's 20.000 EUROs cheaper !
if the MX was the same price with the etron, would have been the better choice.
but it's a much more expensive machine

 

[wdolson]

At least here in the US, searching for specifications for the Bolt comes up with numbers in English units and because most of what's out there for the e-Tron is European, those specs are in metric. I did a quick conversion in my head and got the math wrong.

 

[Peteski]

I agree that the Audi should be a serious contender for anyone considering a Model X, but I would still personally take the Tesla.

To compare prices meaningfully, you will need to actually configure the Audi since all VAG products I've ever configured needed at least £10-15k added in options just to cover the basics. I can't see the e-tron being any different. It was the same with the iPace. Base price is usually set very low to attract attention, but woefully short of standard equipment. Also have to compare finance rates, as Tesla have generally been very competitive on PCP deals - although rates have shot up in recent months. But if it really does work out cheaper overall than an X 75D, then that's a strong selling point.

I also tend to agree with you about general build quality, but given the new technology I don't think reliability is guaranteed for the e-tron. I'm sure there will be inevitable teething troubles with early adopters. I've owned plenty of high end German cars and they have not proven to be as reliable as some people presume. But then we know that reliability (or at least build quality) is not exactly a Tesla strong point!

I have to say I'm disappointed with the Audi interior design. It's fussy with lots of pointless features, such as the ridiculous over-sized gear selector, awkwardly stacked dual displays of different sizes and the rear heating console that sticks out right in front of the middle rear seat. It might well have some nice touchy-feely materials, but I still prefer the Tesla interior design and in the X it feels plenty premium enough for my taste.

The Audi exterior is boring but inoffensive. Would be hard pressed to distinguish it from a regular Q7 and it was very lazy simply to keep the same front grille with blanking panels top and bottom. That looks like a bodge to me, right up there with fake exhaust tips!

What do you call a "real" SUV? Nobody is going to go seriously off-road in an e-tron. What really matters in this class is on-road performance and the Tesla X is pretty damn good in handling. Only the Porsche Cayenne is up there with it, or perhaps slightly better. The Audi Q7 feels like a boat in comparison to either and so I expect the e-tron will be similar. The X might be a good substitute for a mini-van, but it doesn't drive anything like one! Doesn't look like one either for that matter.

If people complained about the MX design being boring, I don't see how the e-tron is any better? A lot of people also complain about how boring Audis look and this is no exception. It's not ugly, but it's not beautiful or even interesting either. At least the MX has its own distinctive look, even if it is divisive.

In summary I think Audi could have done much better for a brand new EV platform. This is really an apologetic EV for people who would normally buy an ICE Audi by default. It might push up the build quality benchmark for luxury EVs, but I don't think anything else about it is class leading i.e. performance, efficiency, cabin space, styling, technology. To me it's just another Audi SUV box that happens to be an EV. I'd certainly give it a go over an ICE Q7, but certainly not trading my MX for it!

 

[jboy210]

I think they are a bit in different classes. A few key differences which matter to some customers:

• Does the Etron come in 6 and 7 seat variants?
• Interior size, especially height is larger in the X
• And the biggest one, widespread high speed charging network available today, that is available at no cost to many X owners

Let's also remember the X is available in performance models that run up to $150,000 USD that sell well. So IMHO the market for the X is not very price sensitive. In Europe you might compare it to BMW 7 series buyers, which is also a better size competitor.

Price sensitive buyers looking for a pure 5 seaters would look at the Tesla Model H which should be more sized like the Etron.

But not matter what, competition is good. It brings us consumers more options.

 

[JMC180]

For what it's worth, my friend just bought a Q7 and I was considering one myself. In fact I put a deposit on a demonstrator for £58,400 at a local dealer. Then I realised it was going to have a facelift next year (Q8 styling and dash) then I considered the fact that 90% of my trips are very short and this is another big turbo diesel in my drive (my wife has an X3 30d and I have a 535d) and i just asked myself what am I doing. So much money and I'm getting barely any Interior or luggage space and residual values although good will not hold out this far in to the model cycle.

I then had cold feet and took a model X for a 24hr drive the first thing that REALLY warmed me to the brand was the SC. There was no pressure and it was just so relaxed. Miles away from the up their own backside stuffy corporate attitude at Audi where they kept running off to get "paperwork" and to "speak to a manager" making you wait 10 mins each time...

I wasn't at all sure about it but the lightbulb moment was when I drove back to the SC in the evening (out of hours 'oh just drop it back when you want we have 24hr security and the guard will have your car key) and the car was just so relaxing on AP through town then when climbing back in to my car it felt agricultural and dated in comparison. Since then I have barely driven my car for a varient of reasons and I can't wait to trade it in.

I climbed in to my friends Q7 when I had the X on 24hr test drive and it felt cramped and all the ICE felt clumsy and awkward. I felt like I could barely see the sat nav screen etc. The lack of streaming music is also a bit howler from Audi considering I have had Deezer in my car for years.

So it's not all about the styling and quality. Try fitting 6 suitcases and 6 adults in an E-tron like I did. Try getting any form of genuine service in a dealership. I stopped visiting BMW a couple of years ago when I couldn't get any service out of them. You always felt like a nuisance and they tried to sell you wiper blades every time you visited.

I have been to Tesla twice and know most people by name have their cellphone numbers they WhatsApp me when required and have been incredibly helpful. The store manager even dealt directly with one or two mundane issue at one point.

So in summary, Tesla is a completely unique experience it's not so much about the car as it is about the feelhood factor, unique approach to everything they do and of course the incredible supercharger infrastructure which no one else will be able to compete with for years.

One last thing, I thoughy I couldn't afford this at first but Tesla PCP is such good value and the guaranteed minimum future value so high after 4 years 50%+ (and my tax rebate so high) that despite being £50k higher in price it actually works out equal or cheaper than an equivalent Audi!

So despite having had Mercs and BMW for the last 12 years, I'm greatly looking forward to my X and nothing announced or in the pipeline would likely make me regret my decision for the forseefores future at least.

 

[JMC180]

P.s. sorry about my spelling I'm on my phone at the beach in Morocco whilst on vacation I'm just so excited to be picking the car up next week the day after I get back!

 

[jboy210]

P.s. sorry about my spelling I'm on my phone at the beach in Morocco whilst on vacation I'm just so excited to be picking the car up next week the day after I get back!

The good life. Beach this week, Model X next week! Enjoy!

 

[vortexz]

well, the SC network is 0 for me since there are non in my country or anywhere near, I live in Romania
The service experience is also 0 for me, since same story, none of them are near.
This is what made me today place a reservation for an Audi Etron
I would have very much liked to have SC network and services in my country, I definetly would have bought a MS or MX years ago but I don't think we're going to get them anytime soon here
So, my best alternative was the Audi Etron

 

[Peteski]

well, the SC network is 0 for me since there are non in my country or anywhere near, I live in Romania
The service experience is also 0 for me, since same story, none of them are near.
This is what made me today place a reservation for an Audi Etron
I would have very much liked to have SC network and services in my country, I definetly would have bought a MS or MX years ago but I don't think we're going to get them anytime soon here
So, my best alternative was the Audi Etron

I'm sure the e-tron will be a decent car. But when are you actually going to get one?

 

[bmah]

Moderator note: Moved two snippy posts (plus a non-snippy reply) to Snippiness. Personal attacks on other forum members are prohibited on TMC, and may lead to probation or banning.

Bruce.

 

[Peteski]

One last thing, I thoughy I couldn't afford this at first but Tesla PCP is such good value and the guaranteed minimum future value so high after 4 years 50%+ (and my tax rebate so high) that despite being £50k higher in price it actually works out equal or cheaper than an equivalent Audi!

When I priced a high specced X75D 7-seater against a similarly loaded Volvo XC90 T8, despite a £10K difference in list price, the Tesla was still a lot cheaper to run on a 4 year PCP, especially with the 7p/mile + VAT unlimited excess. But that could all be irrelevant for the OP in Romania depending on what finance options are available. As a cash purchase a Tesla doesn't make much sense unless you are going to keep it for 10 years or more. I thought 1.5% APR with a generous 50% 4-year residual was a safer bet. I know the rates are now more like 4-5%, but I expect Audi finance would be higher.

 

[jboy210]

well, the SC network is 0 for me since there are non in my country or anywhere near, I live in Romania
The service experience is also 0 for me, since same story, none of them are near.
This is what made me today place a reservation for an Audi Etron
I would have very much liked to have SC network and services in my country, I definetly would have bought a MS or MX years ago but I don't think we're going to get them anytime soon here
So, my best alternative was the Audi Etron

I can surely understand that reasoning. But by the same reasoning, does Audi have a charging network in Romania?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Just FYI, the eTron is more a competitor to the Chevy Bolt than the Model X. The Bolt and eTron are almost exactly the same dimensions with the same cargo space. The Model X is much larger.

The eTron is about 2X the price of the Bolt. Obviously the eTron must have nicer trim, but is it worth twice the price?

The Bolt is not sold in Europe - and since the Opel sale, Opel Ampera-e availability has been close to nil as well. We don't have Model 3 either yet. OTOH I-Pace and e-tron are available for order widely in Europe.

I can surely understand that reasoning. But by the same reasoning, does Audi have a charging network in Romania?

CCS networks are much more prevalent in Europe (also compared to CHAdemo), than they are in U.S. - and they are the one Tesla does not support. Supercharger network is sparse or missing in Northern and Eastern Europe, while CCS is available more widely there.

 

[tpedwards]

I wonder if any of the Superchargers planned for Craiova, Bucharest or Braila will be completed by the time he actually gets his e-Tron.

 

[Pandamoanium]

I think each will have their shining and humble moments. I was told to expect white glove service by getting a Model X and was considered an early adopter. I feel like I've gotten dirt kicked in my eyes type of service. Audi with their bring it to the dealership model is going to be what maintains the customer and brand relationship, as well as provide hands on learning/experience for the dealerships. This is all important data for the health of their continued advancements.

Battery tech will of course be behind Tesla, anyone who expected otherwise is either overly optimistic, or maybe generalizing battery cell tech to broadly. I think build quality will be there when it comes to specific items. Like the materials and overall layout. Still though, weight distribution and all of that with new components and battery will be a learning curve. I think Volks group expects this and will use this as an opportunity to improve their overall builds and bring it to Porsche.

Super charging and the network is important, but I personally think it's blown up more than most like to admit. For the day to day or soccer Mom customers, home charging is more than adequate. I'm going to pull a number out and say 75% of customers will fall into that category.

The most important part in all of this is that Audi is stepping into the game. Volks group is ready and for all you fan boys out there, Elon had a Q7 prior to his Model X. Take that for what you will but I miss my Q7 at times. I think this is great and something which even Tesla/Elon will be proud of. They made their move and forced for other car manufactures tot take the Tesla mission seriously. Even if it's money driven.

Given that Tesla has set the bar so high in terms of issues and reliability, I might be open to trying out the E-Tron if it would be hitting the streets before my warranty is up. Worst case scenario people can always just sell and go back to Tesla while others work their issues out.

 

[wdolson]

I also tend to agree with you about general build quality, but given the new technology I don't think reliability is guaranteed for the e-tron. I'm sure there will be inevitable teething troubles with early adopters. I've owned plenty of high end German cars and they have not proven to be as reliable as some people presume. But then we know that reliability (or at least build quality) is not exactly a Tesla strong point!

All new car designs have bugs. Even the top brands in the world have teething problems. Overall the Germans are better at bending metal than Tesla and I would expect the fit and finish of any German car to be better than Tesla. Tesla has about 10 years experience with electric drive trains and VW Group only has experience with some compliance cars and hybrids. There may be some bugs in the Audi drive system that needs to get worked out.

I'd be cautious about getting any car it's first year on the market. I got lucky with my Buick, but the drive train and chassis were all well known tech and all the changes were cosmetic. I would only seriously think about a Model X now. The initial problems have mostly been worked out at this point. The Model 3 is maturing faster, but it's had some issues too. They have tweaked the design several times already.

I got an early refresh S and I had a problem with one of the few pieces of tech that changed. My headlights started buzzing before the first year was out, which was a common problem. Fortunately it was an easy fix.

I expect the initial problems with the e-Tron to be fewer and less severe than some of Tesla's problems have been. Audi just has more experience making cars, but there will be some issues.

The EU countries are making efforts to expand the CCS network for the coming EVs from European brands and there will probably be more CCS chargers in Eastern Europe than superchargers for a while to come. So a European made EV with a CCS charger might be a better choice for an Eastern European who wants access to a long distance network.

 

[jboy210]

...
Super charging and the network is important, but I personally think it's blown up more than most like to admit. For the day to day or soccer Mom customers, home charging is more than adequate. I'm going to pull a number out and say 75% of customers will fall into that category.

Supercharging or other long range travel fast charging is what takes a car from a "town" car to one you can use all the time. And regardless of the real need is feature many consider it key. After all how many times have we heard the term "range anxiety" and heard people call EVs toys because they cannot use and car to make a 1000 mile trip (not that many people do) and fill up on any street corner.