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Model X vs Volvo XC90

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In my opinion this thread is extremely questionable. Why is there a thread filled with details of another car in the Model X sub-forum? According to my comprehension this sub forum is to talk about X. If poster's who aren't interested in the X anymore want to buy another that's fine, but why are they discussing it in the X forum? I hope its not some excuse like "Hope Tesla sees this and we force them to ad features we want"...Wow!! May I remind you this is X sub-forum, its not a cross shopping sub forum. This is a place where people and owner come to read about Model X. According to my opinion (I maybe wrong) if a person who is not interested in X anymore needs to post where he finds the car he is interested in rather than use the X-forum for the car he like. If you are happy with XC90 or any other car, want to help people to buy XC90 or any other car and are not interested in X why create a thread in X forum about it? (Its my opinion, I am a new user and certainly if majority of users are ok with this then its fine. Though I will still disagree with this use of X forum (not that anyone cares about my opinion though).)

Precedence has certainly been set in the past for these types of discussions to happen in the model-specific sub-forums. Here are similar threads all in the Model S one (to name a few):

S vs. 5-series: Model S vs BMW 5 Series
S vs. S6: Can't decide between Model S or Audi S6
S vs. Fusion Energi: Ford Fusion ENERGI or Model S ...

I've spent a lot of time on other car forums as well (I'm a car guy by nature, not just an EV guy), and trust me, all of the other forums have similar threads (FJ Cruiser vs Wrangler, Sequoia vs Suburban, Pilot vs Highlander, etc.). I think it's completely reasonable to have a thread for people who were originally thinking of buying the Model X but are now considering something else. I'm sure part of it is people do want Tesla to take note and consider making some changes, and if that's the case, why is that such a bad thing? What's the worst that could happen? Tesla incorporates some of the 'pros' of competitor's vehicles into the X? To me, that sounds like a good thing for Tesla.

I think 99% of us on here want Tesla to succeed, but for some, the Model X has missed the mark in a couple of key ways which is making them consider other vehicles. What people like AnOutsider is doing is helping those who also maybe had the XC90 on their shopping list understand how it stacks up against the X.
 
We test drove the XC 90 T6 today. The only part of the new Sensus system that turns off when you're in motion are some of the vehicle settings. You can enter addresses while in motion.

It's a fantastic car in many ways and pretty average in many others. It's got ONE USB port.... in the whole car.
How many 12V plugs does it have? The brochure says there's power in each row. A 12V plug becomes two USB ports with a $2 adapter.
 
Yggdrasill, You say Model X will be quieter than XC90. Of course when driving slow, but I'm not 100% convinced it will be quieter in highway speeds. Premium cars don't have any audible engine noise in highway speeds because noice from tyres and wind cancels it out.

About the safety I would say we don't have any independent results. Results which were shown in launch event were done by Tesla itself.
 
Yggdrasill, You say Model X will be quieter than XC90. Of course when driving slow, but I'm not 100% convinced it will be quieter in highway speeds. Premium cars don't have any audible engine noise in highway speeds because noice from tyres and wind cancels it out.
I think the start-stop function of the PHEV will be an order of magnitude more annoying than any potential tire and wind noise in the Model X.

About the safety I would say we don't have any independent results. Results which were shown in launch event were done by Tesla itself.
We can of course discuss the safety aspect, but I'm personally completely convinced the Model X will be a safer car, for the following reasons:

- Less chance of rollover. Absolutely no way an XC90 can compete with a 600 kg battery pack and most of the drivetrain placed below the wheel hubs.
- In the Model X, you're not sitting on 50 liters of highly flammable liquid.
- No ICE in the front crumple zone. Maybe the testing won't show the complete benefit of this, but it's there. The Model X might for instance have a 10% chance of injury from 20-80 mph, while the XC90 might have a 5% chance of injury from 20-50 mph, and then a 50% chance of injury from 50-80 mph. The testing would show that the XC90 is twice as good, while it actually isn't in real life. The real life capabilities of the Teslas has been proven in the real world since the launch of the Model S. The only way to die in a Model S is to drive off a cliff or not wear your seatbelt.

My one worry is if the massive windscreen is more dangerous when it comes to moose collisions, but I suspect it doesn't make a huge difference.

 
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Just like people who are not interested in the X anymore but choose to stay on the X forum.

It is not that people don't have interest in the X anymore. I would still be holding my reservation if the SUV met my needs in an SUV. TM will probably come out with a folding seat option but is it really 'soon' ( 3-6 months ) or Tesla 'soon' (6-12 months). If my current ICE SUV goes DOA one day I have to have alternatives if the X I am waiting for has not been produced. Many people, myself included, have been nursing their ICE SUV along waiting for the long delayed X to come out so we can get go all EV.

Beating the dead horse: We all made at least two 'assumptions' based on the limited information coming out of TM: First, the prototype showing a folding second row (no word to anyone that it would be different until Mark posted his config page, then confirmed by contacting TM) and Second, towing capacity: James Chen indicating up to 10K towing ability and he is not just anyone at the SC or that you reach on the '800' number at TM.....
 
What people like AnOutsider is doing is helping those who also maybe had the XC90 on their shopping list understand how it stacks up against the X.

Also, aside from my personal interest, as a moderator I noticed more and more posts about the XC90 in various Model X threads, and having a singular thread helps corral that. Indeed, I've already seen one or two posters move their discussion here and out of other threads.

As for using the thread as a bargaining chip... For what? Tesla is likely to offer folding seats down the line, this thread isn't going to force that (I also think the X is more spacious than the XC90 for passengers anyway). We are passing on the XC, but did send our cancellation request in, so there's nothing to push Tesla on. We'll revisit the X in about half a year and see where things are.
 
In my opinion this thread is extremely questionable. Why is there a thread filled with details of another car in the Model X sub-forum? According to my comprehension this sub forum is to talk about X. If poster's who aren't interested in the X anymore want to buy another that's fine, but why are they discussing it in the X forum? I hope its not some excuse like "Hope Tesla sees this and we force them to ad features we want".

[snip]

Wow!! May I remind you this is X sub-forum, its not a cross shopping sub forum. This is a place where people and owner come to read about Model X. According to my opinion (I maybe wrong) if a person who is not interested in X anymore needs to post where he finds the car he is interested in rather than use the X-forum for the car he like. /…
Precedence has certainly been set in the past for these types of discussions to happen in the model-specific sub-forums. Here are similar threads all in the Model S one (to name a few):

S vs. 5-series: Model S vs BMW 5 Series
S vs. S6: Can't decide between Model S or Audi S6
S vs. Fusion Energi: Ford Fusion ENERGI or Model S ...

/...
And:

I’m not a mod, but I’m guessing it's kind of hard to think of sub-forums for everything.

Anyway... Is there really a problem here?

What do you think the end result from a thread like this is going to be? I’m guessing on more informed customers. And I’m also guessing that most of the folks who are in the market for a new vehicle this size are going to choose the Model X.


Here are few threads where people compared the Model S to other vehicles. They all resulted in sales for the Model S.

Can't decide between Model S or Audi S6

Racked with indecision...

"Tesla is a Novelty Vehicle"...
 
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I'm personally completely convinced the Model X will be a safer car, for the following reasons:
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...
...

- No ICE in the front crumple zone. Maybe the testing won't show the complete benefit of this, but it's there. The Model X might for instance have a 10% chance of injury from 20-80 mph, while the XC90 might have a 5% chance of injury from 20-50 mph, and then a 50% chance of injury from 50-80 mph. The testing would show that the XC90 is twice as good, while it actually isn't in real life. The real life capabilities of the Teslas has been proven in the real world since the launch of the Model S. The only way to die in a Model S is to drive off a cliff or not wear your seatbelt.

...
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I am constantly amazed by this forum. Your numbers are pure conjectures with no scientific basis and no supporting data. I am sure the automotive industry and insurance industry will be really interested in hearing how the these tests does not translate into real life.

Here are some data for the last gen XC90 from IIHS on driver death rate.

Screen Shot 2015-10-04 at 8.58.42 AM.png


Disclaimer: No, I do not work for Volvo. I harshly criticized the small XC90 fuel tank.

Just another perspective vehicle buyer that is trying to be objective about a major purchase. Of course, I have been doing lots of research since the Model X unveil. Just wanna share my findings with this forum.
 

And isn’t it even more complicated than that?

Do we know if some people used any of the vehicles where people died to commit suicide by driving off a cliff or into rock wall etc?


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…/ Volvo [Cars (My edit.)] is owned by Chinese-automaker Zhejiang Geely Holding Group, aka Geely [source: Wikipedia.org] […

First: When talking about Volvo Cars it’s important to separate Volvo Cars from Volvo Group.

.../ The Volvo Group /.../ is a Swedish multinational manufacturing company headquartered in Gothenburg. Its core activity is the production, distribution and sale of trucks, buses and construction equipment. Volvo [Group (My edit.)] also supplies marine and industrial drive systems and financial services. /...

Source:

Volvo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
AFAIK there aren’t (even) any significant Chinese minority ownership in Volvo Group.

But now that I’ve clarified that…

…/ Volvo [Cars (My edit.)] is owned by Chinese-automaker Zhejiang Geely Holding Group, aka Geely [source: Wikipedia.org] […

Maybe I’m splitting hairs here, but it’s actually even worse than that…

Volvo Cars is in fact owned by the Chinese state – which as we all know isn’t exactly a beacon of democracy…

Imagine how that feels for a Swede… :crying:


Source: Volvo V60 Plug-in Hybrid - Post #2 | TMC
 
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I am constantly amazed by this forum. Your numbers are pure conjectures with no scientific basis and no supporting data. I am sure the automotive industry and insurance industry will be really interested in hearing how the these tests does not translate into real life.

Here are some data for the last gen XC90 from IIHS on driver death rate.
I haven't said the XC90 is unsafe. But it has an engine in the crumple zone. In some situations that will affect the safety. Both the XC90 and the Model X can be expected to be extremely safe.

Disclaimer: No, I do not work for Volvo. I harshly criticized the small XC90 fuel tank.
I thought that criticism was odd. The fuel tank is plenty big enough. I'd probably be covering around 60% of my milage with electricity, so with 4k miles/year on gas, and ~250 miles per fillup, that's 16 fillups per year.
 
And isn’t it even more complicated than that?

Do we know if some people used any of the vehicles where people died to commit suicide by driving off a cliff or into rock wall etc?

...

Imagine how that feels for Swede… :crying:

Absolutely it is more complicated than that and both the Model X and XC90 are likely going to be the safest vehicles that one can buy. I said exactly that many time before.

What I find comical and even fanatical is that some on this forum will outright dismiss any positive aspects of a competing vehicle or to ignore actual data and form conclusions that is not based on science but conjectures out of thin air.

Also, let's not forget Saab. My eyes are literally getting wet.:crying::crying::crying:
 
.../ My one worry is if the massive windscreen is more dangerous when it comes to moose collisions, but I suspect it doesn't make a huge difference.

I personally wonder if Tesla had moose collisions in consideration when they decided to make the current windscreen on the Model X standard. As this Elk/Moose Crash Test with that old Hyundai demonstrates, moose collisions are actually one potential accident type where a taller SUV vehicle has a significant safety advantage over a regular sized vehicle like a sedan or a station wagon – if the SUV has a conventional windscreen that is…


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.../ Also, let's not forget Saab. My eyes are literally getting wet.:crying::crying::crying:
I know the feeling. :crying:
 
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I haven't said the XC90 is unsafe. But it has an engine in the crumple zone. In some situations that will affect the safety. Both the XC90 and the Model X can be expected to be extremely safe.

I thought that criticism was odd. The fuel tank is plenty big enough. I'd probably be covering around 60% of my milage with electricity, so with 4k miles/year on gas, and ~250 miles per fillup, that's 16 fillups per year.

1. First of all, we both agree XC90 and Model X are very safe cars. But the lack of ICE does make for an interest point.

I absolutely agree that Tesla in theory has a better starting point in designing frontal crumple zone. Have they done a better job protecting occupant in frontal crush is an entirely different matter. They certainly have with the Model S.

But let's not forget that automotive manufactures have decades of experience dealing with having an ICE engine up upfront (most of the time) and have done works to mitigate the effects.

Also interesting is how cargo in the frunk will affect the results. E.g. empty frunk vs 2 rims, vs 2 sets of golf clubs?


2. As to the small XC90 T8 fuel tank. A simplified comparison, the T6 has a longer range on long highway trips (18.8 x 25mpg = 470 miles). Even on a full battery and assume 20 mile EV range, the T8 needs to do (470-20)/13.2 = 34.1mpg on the highway to match the range of the T6.

Even without the parasitic lost of a conventional AWD system, I don't think the heavier XC90 T8 PHEV can do 34 mpg on the ICE. Yes, fueling a 50L tank takes just minutes, but combined with the limited amount of power that can be sent to the rear. The T8 seems less impressive and more of a compromise.
 
Well let me start off by saying my grammar is not the best, however I would like to contribute to this thread in hopes that I might be helpful J. I am not here to slam either car, just simply here to give my opinion, which is exactly that…. Just an opinion. J
My wife and I found out we were having twins in 2013 and that’s where our journey started. We were hoping to find the perfect SUV for a growing family. Like anything else It was a lot of money that we were going to spend so there was much research needed to be done. Soon as I caught wind that tesla would make an SUV I was ecstatic! Our current vehicles were a Volvo S40 and a little pickup and we knew these vehicles were only temporary. Anyone with children knows how much space kids require. So when the time came to reserve a model X we did!
Fast-forward and our kids were 11 months and outgrew the smaller car-seats and there was absolutely no room. It broke my heart because I knew what that meant; I had to cancel my reservation. I never faulted Tesla for the delays that took place becasue I agree with Elon’s philosophy of not putting out a product unless it is perfect. All that to say we ended up purchasing someone’s canceled 2016 XC90 reservation this last August. Out of the door it cost us around $76,000. We then had Mike at Appearance Solutions in Sacramento put Opti-Coat plus and a Full X-pel Ultimate package on it. I have driven the Vehicle 2500 miles and consistently get 19-20 city and 28-29 highway. I believe the interior quality is top notch, and all the features are fantastic. I really think Volvo executed this vehicle very well. The only thing is, It is not a Tesla.
There is not a day that goes by that I wish I would have held off just another 8 months. We cannot afford to trade in later for a Tesla, because this vehicle took most of our savings… and the amount we would loose on resale just would not make sense. Maybe in 15 years we will have enough saved again to buy the Model X. I believe the Volvo is only second to the Model X. Now with another kid on the way the model X’s space would be a tremendous help. Our twins stroller does not fit behind the 6[SUP]th[/SUP] and 7[SUP]th[/SUP] seat of the Volvo, but with the model X’s measurements out now, I know it could definitely fit behind the Model X’s 6[SUP]th[/SUP] and 7[SUP]th[/SUP] seat. Also having thee kids in car-seats the Model X’s 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] row configuration would make it so much easier on my wife to get the kids in and out of the vehicle. As of right now the Volvo is quite difficult to work with three large car-seats.
Finally when I factor in gas savings, and over all the cost of future parts for my XC90 the Tesla just makes sense. After test driving the Tesla, there is just something special about it that I just don’t get when I drive my Volvo. I Am trying not to sound ungrateful, but I truly wish I would have waited, or even rented another car Until My X came in. Now I have to live vicariously threw other owners J I still day dream that someone will offer me $70,000 for MY Volvo and I can still get my X. All this to say IF you are cross shopping the XC90 please just stick with the Tesla Model X, because although the Volvo is a wonderful SUV, it is not a Tesla and you will REGRET it. This is just a letter trying to keep you from making the mistake I made, a mistake I constantly regret…..
 
To anyone considering cross-shopping the XC90 T8 plug-in hybrid with the Model X, I would highly recommend you test drive both a Volvo with a 4 cylinder start-stop engine and a Model S (since the X isn't available for test drives yet) to comapre the engine/motor experience.

I have a Model S, my wife has an XC60 with a V6 engine. I find her car quite nice, and that engine smooth and pleasant.

However, I recently drove a Volvo service loaner with a 4 cylinder start-stop, hybrid engine and I thought it was terrible.

Rough, lots of vibration, the whole car shuddered whenever it sprung back to life when lifting off the brake at a stoplight. Absolutely annoying. Nothing remotely like the totally smooth, quiet, Bentley V12-like experience of the Model S/X drivetrain.

No way I'd pay $80,000 for a car with a 4 cylinder engine, even if I was willing to accept buying another car with an ICE.
 
To anyone considering cross-shopping the XC90 T8 plug-in hybrid with the Model X, I would highly recommend you test drive both a Volvo with a 4 cylinder start-stop engine and a Model S (since the X isn't available for test drives yet) to comapre the engine/motor experience.

I have a Model S, my wife has an XC60 with a V6 engine. I find her car quite nice, and that engine smooth and pleasant.

However, I recently drove a Volvo service loaner with a 4 cylinder start-stop, hybrid engine and I thought it was terrible.

Rough, lots of vibration, the whole car shuddered whenever it sprung back to life when lifting off the brake at a stoplight. Absolutely annoying. Nothing remotely like the totally smooth, quiet, Bentley V12-like experience of the Model S/X drivetrain.

No way I'd pay $80,000 for a car with a 4 cylinder engine, even if I was willing to accept buying another car with an ICE.

That' s the reason I'm considering the Merc GLE Hybrid's 6cilinder gas engine . Scheduling a testdrive.
But will wait till I can also test a Model X
 
How many 12V plugs does it have? The brochure says there's power in each row. A 12V plug becomes two USB ports with a $2 adapter.

One up front and one in the second row. I tried to look for one in the third row but didn't find one. They're may be one in the cargo area.

Yeah, 12V USB adapters are great, I just prefer not having a kludge in a car that's new for 2015. Also, the 12V and USB up front are buried in the center console storage under the armrest.
 
Here's a write-up I did of my comparison (for my purposes, which may not match yours) of the available information on Model S vs. Model X vs. plug-in hybrid Volvo XC90 a few weeks ago:
Tesla Model S, without jump seats in the back: This is a big, 5-seat sedan. With the panoramic roof option, there's lots of space in the front seats. (Without, I'm too tall, so it's a little uncomfortable--this is true for many cars.) The back seats have a fair amount of space--3 big adults across would be very tight, although possible for short trips. I bet one adult, one young teen, and one child would be okay, which means that it would be pretty good throughout the likely usage life-time. (If we have to get a new car in 9 or 10 years, that's fine.) Has a great short-trip range (over 200 miles), and can be used for long-distance travel with free recharging on the road... but the network of Superchargers still has some serious problems (most notably the long barren stretch of I-80 in Pennsylvania, for our purposes), so we would often need to take a meaningfully longer route (say a 14 hour drive instead of a 12 hour drive) with lots of reasonable (half hour ish) stops to recharge along the way--it could easily add several hours of total travel time to a 12 hour trip. Available in all-wheel drive. Excellent safety--good but not necessarily best around crash avoidance (Autonomous Emergency Braking system, adaptive cruise control, lane departure warning, good camera system, inconveniently located but present blind-spot warning), excellent crash test results, ridiculously good avoidance of roll-overs, excellent subjective crash avoidance handling in Consumers Reports testing. Also extraordinarily expensive (roughly twice the cost of the Ford Fusion Energi, three times the cost of some of the small cars), but within the range that we could afford, although it would certainly bite into the money we have for other things. Has a very high awesome factor.

Tesla Model S, with jump seats in the back: this adds two small rear-facing child seats in the hatchback area. The upside is that, while the kids are small enough to use them, a seating pattern like 2-2-1 or 2-2-2 is likely to be very comfortable. It also makes guests feasible (say, an adult friend, their child, and our whole family all fitting in the car at once) Downsides: less storage space even when folded up; we'd probably need an external storage pod on the roof for long-distance travel with the seats in use, which has efficiency costs and adds extra expense; some kids get motion sickness when facing backwards; some reports that those seats can get very (perhaps dangerously?) hot. Otherwise, the same as the Tesla Model S without jump seats.

Tesla Model X: We don't have full details on this yet, but it's a roomier, bigger Model S. It would cost a little more, but frankly, an extra $5000 of cost isn't likely to break the bank. Somewhat less efficient than the Model S (maybe 10% less efficiency and range at a given point). Should have lots of space--7 adult seats (2-3-2), where 2-2-2 should be very comfortable and 2-3-2 may still be comfortable. All wheel drive standard. Safety information not available yet. (ETA: Tesla says internal safety testing shows extraordinarily good safety results, but no external crash test data is available yet.) We would probably get a delivery in the first half of 2016, which is late but would be okay--but the delivery could be delayed. New orders are looking at the second half of 2016. I expect it to be comparably safe to the Model S, but perhaps less so because of higher center of gravity (but perhaps not meaningfully so, because the battery pack is still most of the weight and evenly distributed around the bottom of the vehicle).

Volvo XC90 plug-in hybrid SUV: This is a mid-sized luxury SUV (i.e. a very large vehicle) that is a plug-in hybrid. It's supposed to have an all electric range of 25 miles or so. It looks like it may have anemic power in all electric mode given the size of the vehicle--I don't need the (stupidly good) acceleration of the Model S, but I'd rather not have worse acceleration than my current Prius. An 87 horsepower electric motor is not a lot to move a 5000 lb. vehicle. It seats 7 adults--probably quite comparable in space to the Model X, but perhaps a little roomier. It's not clear how efficient it is in EV mode. Some reports suggest 59 mpge, which isn't very good, but some claim in the ballpark of 100 mpge, which is comparable to the Tesla Model S. Official numbers aren't out yet. It's basically not available yet, but supposed to be available real soon now--I view it as comparable to the Model X in this regard, but it might have a faster progression to wide availability. It has probably the best crash avoidance technology of any vehicle I've looked at, and the ICE version does extremely well on crash tests (better than the Model S in some regards, at least in the European crash tests), but it gets good but not great marks on roll-over avoidance (it's a top-heavy SUV, after all). It is a gas guzzler in non-EV mode--with the ICE providing the power, it gets about 25 mpg highway, 20 mpg city, which is pretty terrible. It's a little cheaper than the Tesla (probably 10% cheaper in the configuration we'd get, although maybe a little less once tax incentives are taken into account), but in the same ballpark--my belief is that the total cost of ownership, counting gas for long road trips, would be a little higher than the Tesla. All wheel drive is standard--I'm not sure if it can do all wheel drive in EV mode, though, so that may require using the ICE when driving around in snowy conditions.
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My take away is that the Volvo XC90 hybrid probably is much less green than it appears to be. I suspect, but we'll need to do a test drive to confirm, that the electric mode is very hard to use for routine travel, so even driving a local commute is probably often going to involve some gas usage. And the ICE is not efficient, so if it kicks in to add acceleration or to go up a hill, the overall efficiency probably drops a lot. Plus, any long-range travel will be very inefficient, running around 25 MPG. If I can test-drive a XC90 hybrid, I will do so, but I currently think it's entirely the wrong car for me.