Are the Dual motor Model S equipped with an "F" battery pack? I would think they had to do a few modification to allow the significantly higher power draw. I could be wrong, though.
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Model X will have the same batteries as the Model S
- Thread starter Blastphemy
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Are the Dual motor Model S equipped with an "F" battery pack? I would think they had to do a few modification to allow the significantly higher power draw. I could be wrong, though.
All the reports are using the same source, so it doesn't really matter how many such reports or who makes them, if the source is still the one and only: Tesla website update. Mind you, it wasn't just a Model X sub-site update. They updated the entire website. If they had only updated the Model X sub-site, it might be that they had something important to change there, but since it was part and parcel with the larger website update, it could also be they just took the content from the old Model X sub-site, re-wrote it to fit the new website format and called it a day.
It all depends on how involved the website facelift process was with the Model X release planning. If they were kept in the dark and allowed to only rehash existing public information (and what is posted there is basically just rehash of old public info) when they wrote the Model X sub-site for the new website, then certainly it is possible any future-announced changes would not be reflected on that site. Of course it is also possible no significant part of the public information about Model X even needs to be changed since last year(s) releases and the website has always reflected reality of what the Model X will be like. Also, maybe the new, full Model X sub-site is already completed behind scenes and this teaser was, in fact, written to line up with that.
But just because Tesla updated the Model X sub-site alongside a large website upgrade, and rehashed same old public information there, can't really be taken as confirmation of anything.
Nubo
Test Mule
That didn't make sense to me at the time, and still does not. If you can get 20% more power for the same weight, there is no diminishing return. You get 20% more range. I don't think our "insider" was an engineer.
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
I don't think it makes sense as a purely technical point but it might make sense if he reworded it as a design decision such as:
There is a weight limit that would cause other components to be upgraded if we cross that line. For now even with the 20% increase in power density we don't have enough weight headroom to pursue a new battery capacity.
Yeah, I don't believe anything any company puts on its official website either. :wink:
Except that he clearly says that the rest of car is heavier (than the S). Which is a reasonable assumption. To then get back to model S range you either increase battery capacity (by more than 20%) or reduce battery weight by exactly 20%. Or whatever the percentage turns out to be. BTW. anyone dare to speculate if the lessons of the P85D initial range fail may impact the model X development?
trialcritic
Member
Wonder when they will increase the range of the cars. They have indicated multiple times of 400 and 500 mile per charge range improvement as an option. Sure, it will be an expensive option. When will this happen. I am eagerly looking forward to this and to possible reduction in the time taken to charge in the superchargers.
robby
Member
Musk tweeted after the Roadster announcement that this was a long-term ambition of Tesla's, but not coming any time soon. Unfortunately it was one of the tweets he has since deleted so I can't cite it.
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
Rev E with "DUAL MTR" on the label.
Some Rev F packs have been spotted on newer non-D cars.
I don't see how your math works out. You'll need something like 120-125 kWh to get a steady state 65mph 400 mile range. I doubt Tesla takes this tack. I can see trying for 300 miles of steady state range with lowering weight being the primary approach with better specific energy cells. That increases MPG-e rating too, as the lowered weight means better rolling resistance and less power needed for acceleration. Everything gets better in the car with lower weight. Plus, Tesla can sell more cars per kWh of cells.
trialcritic
Member
At the moment, the battery is supposed to be the same. People are speculating that the batteries will get upgraded sometime in 2016/2017. The batteries are doubling in density every decade.
Based on this, we can potentially get 110Kw battery pack for Model S and Model X by 2016/2017. This should extend the range to 400 miles. The BIG problem with EVs is the curse of recharge range. Once we hit 500 miles, this problem will go away. Here is to hoping.
From Tesla 10-Q Securities and Exchange Commission report:
"We plan to use the battery packs manufactured at the Gigafactory for our vehicles, initially for the Model S and Model X, and later for our Model 3 vehicle. and stationary storage applications."
Based on this, we can potentially get 110Kw battery pack for Model S and Model X by 2016/2017. This should extend the range to 400 miles. The BIG problem with EVs is the curse of recharge range. Once we hit 500 miles, this problem will go away. Here is to hoping.
From Tesla 10-Q Securities and Exchange Commission report:
"We plan to use the battery packs manufactured at the Gigafactory for our vehicles, initially for the Model S and Model X, and later for our Model 3 vehicle. and stationary storage applications."
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Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Looks at Moore's Law, for instance: "The number of transistors that can be fit on a computer chip will double every two years, resulting in periodic increases in computing power." But that hasn't been happening for some time, now. It's slowing down, and will eventually no longer be sustainable.
That chart you provided only shows the progress from 1990 to the EV1 to the Tesla Roadster. But where does Tesla state that the Model S batteries have a volumetric energy density of 700 Wh/l? (It's an honest question - I hope they really do!)
That chart you provided only shows the progress from 1990 to the EV1 to the Tesla Roadster. But where does Tesla state that the Model S batteries have a volumetric energy density of 700 Wh/l? (It's an honest question - I hope they really do!)
trialcritic
Member
Moore's Law held for a very long time. Agreed that past performance does not imply future. This image was shown by JB Straubel at SoCal Energy Summit, surely he knows what he is talking about. The range doubling is without weight gain or cost increase. Musk has indicated a few times that he wishes to get to 500 miles.
Do check out Straubel's talk.
Do check out Straubel's talk.
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Thumper
Active Member
Is it possible that the X was delayed not because of problems, but to implement Tesla's air-aluminum battery design that was patented last year? The air aluminum gives quite long range at moderate discharge rates and the Li-on delivers the instant torque.
I know that more and more people keep talking about a 400- and 500-mile car, but the economics just don't work out for that.
In the 2 1/4 years I've owned my daily-driver Model S (45k miles), never once have I stayed locally (returned home the same night) and been worried about the range of the car. ~250 miles is plenty, and that fits with most drivers I talk to with few exceptions (regional reps/salescritters). A 400-mile car would simply add additional capacity that's only needed a handful of times a year - for longer road trips. Most people -- and I recognize there are exceptions -- need to stop every few hours on road trips anyway to stretch the legs, let the kids/pets pee, etc. (Perhaps an additional few miles might be nice, 3.5 or 4 hours on the road vs. the 3 I get today.)
Would I love it if my car did 400 or 500 miles on a full charge? You bet - at least for the same price. Tesla has said it could produce a 400- or 500-mile car today, if it wanted to. Would you pay $20-30k more for the car's additional range? I can't say that I'd make that investment.
(Also note that while J.B. in the video above talks about cost being the same, Tesla still has to shoot for the right margins, so lower cost is still a good thing for them, even keeping it at 265 miles.)
I have had my concerns the range of the Model X was going to suffer if based on the same platform as Model S. Personally, I like the narrative that the batteries in the Model X will be 20% more efficient (power density), but the rest of the vehicle consumes that 20% that was generated, meaning that 85 kWh still delivers ~265 miles of range for the Model X as well.
Just $0.02.
In the 2 1/4 years I've owned my daily-driver Model S (45k miles), never once have I stayed locally (returned home the same night) and been worried about the range of the car. ~250 miles is plenty, and that fits with most drivers I talk to with few exceptions (regional reps/salescritters). A 400-mile car would simply add additional capacity that's only needed a handful of times a year - for longer road trips. Most people -- and I recognize there are exceptions -- need to stop every few hours on road trips anyway to stretch the legs, let the kids/pets pee, etc. (Perhaps an additional few miles might be nice, 3.5 or 4 hours on the road vs. the 3 I get today.)
Would I love it if my car did 400 or 500 miles on a full charge? You bet - at least for the same price. Tesla has said it could produce a 400- or 500-mile car today, if it wanted to. Would you pay $20-30k more for the car's additional range? I can't say that I'd make that investment.
(Also note that while J.B. in the video above talks about cost being the same, Tesla still has to shoot for the right margins, so lower cost is still a good thing for them, even keeping it at 265 miles.)
I have had my concerns the range of the Model X was going to suffer if based on the same platform as Model S. Personally, I like the narrative that the batteries in the Model X will be 20% more efficient (power density), but the rest of the vehicle consumes that 20% that was generated, meaning that 85 kWh still delivers ~265 miles of range for the Model X as well.
Just $0.02.
mikes_fsd
Banned
I think a 400-500 mile range car would be awesome for cold climates, blast your heat and drive like a madman and still get ~250 of range on a 400 mile rated battery pack... that would be sweet!
engle
Member
In the future, whenever Tesla has longer range batteries ready for production, I expect they will delay announcing them until the last possible moment so as not to cannibalize existing orders and have to resell now-obsolete vehicles already in production that are cancelled. (They took some hit with the P85D from what I've read, and had to discount vehicles that don't have the new AutoPilot hardware.)
That's the whole point of a 500mile EV.
You can get 300 miles out of it without careful planning, without minding the speed, without accounting for wind, rain, snow, without precharging it to 100% etc. and without worries of a broken/ICEed/xy chargers on your way,
Jump in and drive for 5 hours straight without a single thought about range.
Would a 1000 mile EV that would offer 600miles of such 'careless' driving make sense?
It would if battery was still and small cheap enough.
As things stay right now, big battery is big and expensive, so there are two opposing 'forces' at work:
- make it lighter, smaller and cheaper
- make it higher capacity
I'd guess MS60kWh is close to optimal battery weight. Use that weight as a target, increase capacity and range and when possible without going over that weight budget.
trialcritic
Member
It is estimated that the 2017 Model S/X with 115 kWh battery is going weigh less and cost less than the 2012 Model S with 85 kWh battery.
As the cars weigh less the 2017 model S/X will be more efficient than the 2012 because it will weigh less with the larger battery.
Orthogonally, the superchargers are getting more powerful. Tesla quietly increased the output of superchargers to 135kw in 2014. It is estimated that they will hit 150kw by next year. It is very likely that you can charge the car in under 10 min by 2017. I do not see the need for battery swap by then. The two problems with EVs are handled by this, range anxiety and charging time. The big problem for the other EVs is the second. I am sure that if Audi wishes, they can eventually create a car with 350 mile range eventually, the problem they face is the charging. If Tesla allows the superchargers to be shared, it is a big deal.
Few comments made by JB Straubel,
"We are expecting to have the doubling in battery capacity at least for the next twenty years."
"Tesla was not founded to make more electric cars, it was founded to drive a revolution in energy technology."
As the cars weigh less the 2017 model S/X will be more efficient than the 2012 because it will weigh less with the larger battery.
Orthogonally, the superchargers are getting more powerful. Tesla quietly increased the output of superchargers to 135kw in 2014. It is estimated that they will hit 150kw by next year. It is very likely that you can charge the car in under 10 min by 2017. I do not see the need for battery swap by then. The two problems with EVs are handled by this, range anxiety and charging time. The big problem for the other EVs is the second. I am sure that if Audi wishes, they can eventually create a car with 350 mile range eventually, the problem they face is the charging. If Tesla allows the superchargers to be shared, it is a big deal.
Few comments made by JB Straubel,
"We are expecting to have the doubling in battery capacity at least for the next twenty years."
"Tesla was not founded to make more electric cars, it was founded to drive a revolution in energy technology."
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As far as a useful-in-emergencies situation, this would be nice. However, one of the greatest things my MS ever did for my road trips was to force me to stop for a while. I was always so focused on "making good time" in my ICE cars, with no regard to fuel efficiency and my physical or mental strain. With the MS, I feel so much more in tune with the journey and healthier on those trips. I just hope if range does go up that I don't revert to my old self.
