This makes sense. Can Fremont setup the megacasting machine, have enough 4680 cells, AND start producing deliverable cars within 18 days as the original poster said? hmmmmmm
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Model Y - Gigafactory Texas Production
- Thread starter Ron J.
- Start date
Elon said that though the cooling ribbons removed insufficient heat the top and bottom of the battery provided sufficient cooling.from the top and bottom plates. Will try and find the article. Indideevs site 30th December 2021
Mrbrock
Active Member
Tesla Model Y Structural Battery Pack: What We Know (And Don't Know)
A comparison between Tesla's patent application and the Model Y battery pack cutaways shows many similarities, but there are still some unanswered questions.
insideevs.com
That one? That clearly shows a lack of top cooling in the cutaway?
There are no Elon Musk or Tesla 4680 articles from 12/30/21 on insideevs.
Or this one where they clearly show anticipated 4680 for semi and the between the cell cooling snakes?
Tesla Semi 4680 Battery Pack Engineering Analysis
We've taken what we know so far, along with other content, to make educated guesses about what to expect with Tesla's 4680 battery pack in the upcoming Semi.
insideevs.com
My takeaway from these articles and snapshots is that the cooling snakes are every other row. That means the far point of each battery could be up to 21mm from a cooling snake. Now that distance is 46mm. And the area of that material is now 4+ times as much (you can assume the snake is the same height as the battery so we can talk in 2 dimensions instead of 3). Even if you put plates on top and bottom (would still like to see this article), that is still 40mm from the center of the battery.
Mrbrock
Active Member
Actually there is 79 and change available. That’s why it went from. 326 to 330. So much more range…
This person has 1 post. They are messing with you people who believe anything you read.
Yea and he was allowed to make only 1 post.But he's an insider, it's in his name!
we know he’s full of it… but we’re bored and have more than a week of time to kill….
My bad , 30th September 2020 by George Bower about 3/4 through article in heavy type. Mentions Elon quote about using end plates for cooling. It would be nice to see a more recent article on the subject as you are correct if you can't solve the cooling problem it's a no go.Tesla Model Y Structural Battery Pack: What We Know (And Don't Know)
A comparison between Tesla's patent application and the Model Y battery pack cutaways shows many similarities, but there are still some unanswered questions.
That one? That clearly shows a lack of top cooling in the cutaway?
There are no Elon Musk or Tesla 4680 articles from 12/30/21 on insideevs.
Or this one where they clearly show anticipated 4680 for semi and the between the cell cooling snakes?
Tesla Semi 4680 Battery Pack Engineering Analysis
We've taken what we know so far, along with other content, to make educated guesses about what to expect with Tesla's 4680 battery pack in the upcoming Semi.
My takeaway from these articles and snapshots is that the cooling snakes are every other row. That means the far point of each battery could be up to 21mm from a cooling snake. Now that distance is 46mm. And the area of that material is now 4+ times as much (you can assume the snake is the same height as the battery so we can talk in 2 dimensions instead of 3). Even if you put plates on top and bottom (would still like to see this article), that is still 40mm from the center of the battery.
Munro think that it is way more efficient to cool from top or bottom(not both). Even if the travel distance is higher, the heat resistance is way lower so it would be better to do it that way. The cutaway clearly shows that Tesla hasn't done that for 4680 (at least in that cutaway). Also Lucid is also convinced that top or bottom cooling is better and are going that route.
I didn't see any online reference of Munro ever received an engineering degree and he provides plenty of online biography. He doesn't come across as particularly intelligent and instead seems to apply common sense from a technician's perspective. No doubt he's been successful hiring engineers, tearing things apart, and selling documents about what the field is doing.
Mrbrock
Active Member
Yep. Unless they have finally taken that step with the production 4680 (Berlin isn't producing them so it is clearly a mockup). Maybe they put a top or bottom plate on and it added a bunch of weight and they had to reduce the number of cells to match the current weight and therefore they ended up with less range.
Thanks for providing that. And it isn't actually an Elon quote. The heat transfer engineer thy reached out surmised that the structural plates Elon was talking about could also be used for cooling. Here is Elon's quote:
"Instead of having a filler as a flame retardant which is what is in the 3 and the Y battery packs, we have a filler that is a structural adhesive as well as a flame retardant so it effectively glues itself to the top and bottom sheet and this allows you to do shear transfer between the upper and lower sheet...............you basically make a honeycomb sandwich with 2 face sheets."
And the part of the article making conclusions from the battery day presentation:
How do they cool the cells now if they don’t pull the heat out the side of the cell?
The new tabless design has an excellent cooling path out of the ENDS of the cells. The electrode’s themselves make perfect cooling plates, which will allow Tesla to pull heat from the center of the cell and out the top and bottom of the cell.
Our heat transfer engineer’s calculations verify that there is NOT sufficient heat transfer to effectively cool the 4680 cells with the cooling snake concept used in Model Y and Model 3. The calculations also indicate that there IS sufficient heat transfer to pull the heat from the top and bottom of the cells.
If the images from the Berlin mockup and in the Tesla structural cell patent applications are to be believed, there is still a cooling snake being used, contrary to what this person concluded in 2020 based on the Battery Day presentation and that his analysis of current cooling design combined with 4680 cells would not be sufficient. To me, integrating a cooling plate along with energy collection seems like a bad idea (your cooling solution would be electrified otherwise electrically insulating would likely cause heat transfer reduction). I would think Tesla just doubled the cooling snakes so the there is one snake between every row of cells and the distance from the center of any cell to a cooling path is the same (less than 23mm) and similar to the 2170 design that they know so well (and spent a long time perfecting). The new battery design is enough of a manufacturing challenge so to completely invent a new cooling system (which would likely be patented as well and we haven't seen any patents relating to a structural battery cooling system) would be an even harder challenge and take much longer to perfect.
Cooling plates are used by NASA in the ISS; I've worked with that and many other applications in the DoD environment..
They can be very efficient, conduct heat away over large areas consistently, and while physically adding some volume, aren't terrible, but do add weight.
They wouldn't add too much depth to the pack for a top or a bottom cooling setup. The batteries at 86mm are only ~3.4in and the pack is well more.
And, they can serve as a ground plane for the vehicle if just used on the negative side of the battery, just as the chassis on every vehicle is today.
However, we have no evidence that cooling plates are an integral part of the structural battery pack.
And I'd guess Battery Day would have mentioned their use if part of the plan.
and... how much energy would a cooling plate require to operate? That’s another energy draw the current Y battery setup doesn’t have to deal with.
Well, ONE whole post that seems to fulfill many Christmas wishes.
And a location of "For Your Eyes Only"
VERIFY before Trust.
It’s even more exciting than the fake Austin VINs. So MUCH wish fulfillment!
There is a cooling system for the modelY. The modelY pump glycol on the side of the batteries, it would instead be pump on the plate over the batteries, so it would be mostly the same for energy draw
Not sure about that. It sounds like this would have an internal snake system AND the outer plates. maybe it could fall be done with the same pump and would be equivalent in energy use, but it would be speculation either way.
I can't answer that directly, but cooling using snake ribbons isn't highly efficient, just good enough. You're still circulating coolant either way.
NASA uses heat exchangers to utilize the waste heat for other needs.
Tesla has their heat pump.
Similar threads
