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Model Y low speed pedestrian safety sound

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Just a thought. Its UFO in reverse and a white noise forwards - Is this so the visually challenged and those not paying attention will know if they were reversed into or not? and is that important to know?

I don't think its a fair test or bear any similarity to reality for a sighted person to try and close their eyes and cross a road to see how scary it would be, those people that are visually challenged have learned to develop a rather more acute hearing capability, indeed I'm told that if any of the 5 senses are lost then humans refine the other senses to aid their mobility.

There are quite a few things that are silent that are dangerous - what next a speaker on a knife?

Perhaps all mobiles should shut down when it detects paces being taken by the owner because pretty much everyone with a phone that is walking is like a zombie looking at their phone - or even add a pedestrian using a mobile to the highway code list as the most vulnerable
 
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Just a thought. Its UFO in reverse and a white noise forwards - Is this so the visually challenged and those not paying attention will know if they were reversed into or not? and is that important to know?

I don't think its a fair test or bear any similarity to reality for a sighted person to try and close their eyes and cross a road to see how scary it would be, those people that are visually challenged have learned to develop a rather more acute hearing capability, indeed I'm told that if any of the 5 senses are lost then humans refine the other senses to aid their mobility.

There are quite a few things that are silent that are dangerous - what next a speaker on a knife?

Perhaps all mobiles should shut down when it detects paces being taken by the owner because pretty much everyone with a phone that is walking is like a zombie looking at their phone - or even add a pedestrian using a mobile to the highway code list as the most vulnerable
I'm not sure its a regulation for the sounds to be different, I can't see that in the spec for UN/ECE.

While some blind people have excellent abilities to hear, there are also older blind people whose hearing degrades just like regular old people, and some simply don't have great hearing.

'speaker on knife' is an example of a Straw Man Argument, make an extreme extrapolation then attack that for being unreasonable. It's not viable to put a speaker on a knife, it is viable to put one on an electric car because we've already done it.
 
'speaker on knife' is an example of a Straw Man Argument, make an extreme extrapolation then attack that for being unreasonable

If we're going to get into critiquing how other people debate...

If you are capable of being annoyed by the AVAS sounds to a degree where you don't care about the concerns of those extremists in the RNIB and the fascist Guide Dogs Association then stick to your guns. Do you also find wheelchair ramps an unacceptable eyesore? Petition against disabled spaces and ban those sign language interpreters at press conferences?

These are not characterisations that I made, they are ones that you imagined. This not much more sophisticated than ad hominem on Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement. In answer to your questions, 'no' and 'no'.

No body likes the sounds, just most have a small ability to empathise with the concerns of others.

The first part of your sentence is readily disproven: UrbanSplash mentioned in this very thread that they think the sound is "cool".

FWIW, I had an eye-opening experience (pun intended) many years ago helping a legally blind fellow martial artist walk from Elephant & Castle to London Bridge in the morning rush hour, after they'd trained at my club, come to the pub with us, and stayed at my place overnight. I think this gave me some insight into their daily challenges, and the ability to empathise somewhat with their position. The smallest curb and bump in the pavement that I'd walked over hundreds of times without noticing was a potential hazard.

The nub of the disagreement here is that which I highlighted earlier: as a matter of subjective taste I find the sound more annoying than others, and I have the belief that the risks are not as high as many others here believe. If others believe the risks are higher, then it's no wonder that they would draw a different conclusion, and that's perfectly fine. I'm not trying to suggest that anyone else is wrong, rather put forward a point of view that others may not share in order to prompt thought and give it representation. I'm happy to change my belief when presented with primary evidence that the risks are indeed higher, and as a result of reading this thread you've already helped me realise that yes, reversing in car parks is a scenario in which rolling tyre noise would not be sufficient to alert the visually-impaired.

Moving the on-topic conversation on somewhat, I wonder what tests folks like the RNIB did, and how well-informed their lobbying is/was? Was it the case that someone said "EVs are silent" and they took that statement at face value? Or was there some empirical testing? If they're most concerned about very low speeds in car parks, why should the sounds persist above say 10mph, or whatever is a reasonable max speed in a car park? I think the Zoe's cuts out at 18mph, by which point the car is certainly making very noticeable road noise. Is there any mention in the specs as to how they drew their conclusions?
 
No I haven't, that's a fair point. Do you have a link handy?

Kindly provided in a previous post:

The AVAS system for EVs require a minimum volume of 56dB. The quietest ICE car I could find has a volume of 71db (Toyota Proace Verso - whatever that is)

That's the difference between a dishwasher and a vacuum.

It also looks like the "Zoe" feature will be prohibited from 2023 onward according to this announcement.

From a lot of material published by the RNIB, Guide Dogs UK and media outlets they quote the following numerous times:

Pedestrians are 40 per cent more likely to be hit by a hybrid or electric car than by one with a petrol or diesel engine in the UK.

A quick Google found this study carried out by the TRL in 2011.

Considering only steady-speed pass-by modes, then at the lowest speed (7-8 km/h) in a ‘semi-rural’ environment, the possibility of increased risk exposure was four times greater for E/HE vehicles than for ICE vehicles (40% compared to 10%). For one of the E/HE vehicles, 80% of the vision-impaired participants either failed to hear the vehicle at all or only detected it after it had driven past where they were standing.
(Page 33)

In spirit of this discussion, AVAS doesn't bother me at all. I don't hear it when reversing and not overly bothered if others do, who may stop and stare. I find it's better not to sweat the small stuff in life :)
 
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Do you have a link handy?

Google it !!

e.g. www.rnib.org.uk/rnibconnect/silent-deadly-electric-hybrid-vehicles-sight-loss that is from 2017, so presumably in the run-up to legislation change

Pedestrians are 40 per cent more likely to be hit by a hybrid or electric car than by one with a petrol or diesel engine in the UK

Research shows that some electric and hybrid vehicles can’t be heard until one second before impact with a pedestrian

And www.rnib.org.uk/news/campaigning/electric-vehicles-safety-sound-milestone July 2021 with a list of things where they don't think currently legislation goes far enough - e.g. that it should be mandatory (i.e. not able to be disabled), and that it should cover all quiet vehicles, and so on.
 
Kindly provided in a previous post

D'oh! I followed the second link in that message, but not the first. Ta for highlighting.

I’d love someone to test but I swear many ice cars are dead quiet

Yeah, actually in the TRL study that @Rirawin kindly shared, it said that at 7-8km/h the difference between ICE vehicles and EVs/hybrids was only 1dB(A). In the conclusion the authors write "[t]here are current model ICE vehicles on the market which are comparable in noise level to E/HE vehicles." That study seems pretty cool - I'm glad that they were thinking about this all the way back in 2011.

Pedestrians are 40 per cent more likely to be hit by a hybrid or electric car

The RNIB are citing Guide Dogs For The Blind, and their link no longer resolves. I suspect it's coming from the TRL study, which says that EVs present a 1.4x risk exposure in comparison to ICE vehicles. This test was done by playing back audio samples to a small number of subjects (10) who had never encountered electric vehicles other than milk floats and mobility scooters, and were not representative of the population of visually-impaired people. Maybe it would be different when folks are more familiar with EVs? The study used response times to measure risk. If someone is unsure what a noise is, they're going to take longer to press the button to indicate that they've heard the thing. I also wonder what the baseline there is - 40% more of a big number is very different to 40% more of a number that was small to begin with.

The TRL study says that at 7-8km/h EVs are 3db(A) louder than ambient noise, and that adults with normal hearing would be able to perceive that difference. Presumably that doesn't hold below 7km/h. From first principles, it stands to reason that parking manoeuvres are a genuine case when EVs would be less audible. However, the study says "the possibility of increased risk exposure posed by vehicles pulling away from rest is significantly less than that when the vehicles are passing by at steady speed." It also shows that participants were equally able to identify an EV parking when reversing as they were ICE vehicles, and only 10 percentage points less able to identify one parking in a forwards motion (90% versus 100% for ICE). I wouldn't have guessed that. Again though, it was a small, unrepresentative sample.

If EVs are the future, I wonder if rather than fitting every new car with what could uncharitably be considered a 'noise pollution device', it'd be more sensible to make some sort of EV-detecting hearing aid. If 21,000 people register blind in the UK each year, and 2,100,000 cars are sold per year in the UK, then a solution that targets those who are impaired would need to be more than 100 times costlier in order to not make more sense. I've no idea how much an AVAS costs, or how much a hitherto-uninvented 'EV-alerting' system would cost.

Definitely seems that RNIB and similar are campaigning for this vociferously, and if there's a genuine increased risk (some academics dispute this, although I couldn't find any relevant published research), then that's fair enough. I'd kinda figured that if my MYP ever arrives, it'd have it.
 
The increased risk should be backed up by real data by now.. there are a lot of Hybrids out there, lot more than EVs and they run through cities on EV mode - have the number of accidents increased significantly? 40% increased risk should become obvious with quite low numbers.

There may even be a positive effect from reduced background noise making it easier to discern individual cars.
 
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The increased risk should be backed up by real data by now.. there are a lot of Hybrids out there, lot more than EVs and they run through cities on EV mode - have the number of accidents increased significantly? 40% increased risk should become obvious with quite low numbers.

There may even be a positive effect from reduced background noise making it easier to discern individual cars.
Hybrid's are covered by the same regulation, so since last year will be fitted with something to make noise at lower speeds.
 
I don't think its a fair test or bear any similarity to reality for a sighted person to try and close their eyes and cross a road to see how scary it would be, those people that are visually challenged have learned to develop a rather more acute hearing capability, indeed I'm told that if any of the 5 senses are lost then humans refine the other senses to aid their mobility.

Having worked in the field of disability all my working life I have had contact with many people with sensory impairments. There are some exceptional individuals with visual impairments who do indeed develop some additional compensatory abilities but this notion has become a truism amongst the able bodied that is quite misleading. I have to tell you that most of the people I worked with who had visual impairments showed no special ability to use their hearing in a more effective way that anybody else. In fact it's not uncommon for someone to have a visual impairment and a specific hearing difficulty as well. I'm afraid life doesn't always even things up in the way we may like to think.
 
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I think I kind of am agreeing yes :) but rather than disagree EVs need a sound, I think ICE need a sound too as modern ones are so quiet
Set up the fart and use it as we approach people althogh, having regard to the number of jaywalking pedestrian with buds in there in the lugs, it will be to no avail.
I won't mention my cycling experiences as it is generally thought that the bikes are a fault.
Actually, a minority are ( perhaps also of Tesla owner? Nah!) Twa's who give us all a bad name.
Let's not be speed boats bur Super Tramps and when we find ourselves beset my those advertising their unsuitability for a place in the genepool we should " Give a little bit ......"
 
Thank god for PWS, I'm so concerned (sleepless nights) at the amount of people that are being run over by electric vehicles silently creeping up on them, the news is full of incidents, and I completely agree with the highway code in that pedestrians don't have to take any responsibility for their own safety when wandering about around moving vehicles - or indeed just wanting to cross the road - just walk out - safe in the knowledge the drivers will just stop - and if they don't then a few weeks off work sunbathing, sorry recovering', and the compensation paid by insurance will more than make up for your suffering and your increased use of energy whilst at home - (after the ambulance chasers have contacted you you can get months off for your life changing incident.). Always thought the Green Cross man was a bit crass and irrelevant - just seemed such stupid advice to look left, right and left again (or was that right, left and right again) before stepping out onto the road. And one last thing - always check your PWS is working because even those car wash guys seem to knock the wire off the speaker just inside the offside wheel arch liner, after taking out just two plastic clips and pulling the liner forward. What is the world coming to?
This is the common misconception. the PWS is not mainly designed for pedestrians who aren't paying attention. It's mainly for people who are blind and can't see the silent car coming!
 
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This is the common misconception. the PWS is not mainly designed for pedestrians who aren't paying attention. It's mainly for people who are blind and can't see the silent car coming!
GlynG said:

always check your PWS is working because even those car wash guys seem to knock the wire off the speaker just inside the offside wheel arch liner, after taking out just two plastic clips and pulling the liner forward. What is the world coming to? always check your PWS is working because even those car wash guys seem to knock the wire off the speaker just inside the offside wheel arch liner, after taking out just two plastic clips and pulling the liner forward. What is the world coming to?

Off topic! Sorry!

This has been an education for me.....who knew.....There is a Tesla Owner who takes his wonderful vehicle to a car wash.
I thought our cousins over the water either washed the cars them selves(so many great Youtube vids) or took them to pro' detailing shops or a combination of both.:)

I am looking forward to collecting my Red Model Y,(gagging for her actually) on 29th June.

She will have spent some time in a Shanghai Giga Car park and a number of weeks on board ship to Europe ....the electric ho!

So, at Delivery, I will give her the once over inspection; count the wheels etc., and then she will be loaded into covered transport and taken to her pro' shop where she will be made as pretty as she deserves and protected against stone chips and environmental contamination .
I shall then assume her care with perhaps a pro' detail every six months - being careful to see that the PWS is functioning - no pesky car wash guys at the pro shop.....they are too busy washing my X3 bless their hearts.🥰
 
I can't imagine how you could accidentally "knock the wire" off the PWS. It is a connector that has a retaining clip, and you'd have to reach pretty far in to the front bumper area to access it. Why would a car wash place be taking off wheel liners much less cleaning behind (?) them?

It is entirely possible that it ends up disconnected from the factory by mistake though, and unnoticed before delivery, such is Tesla PDI.
 
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