Model Y P vs Rivian R1S

[DayTrippin]

I do not own a Tesla but had a deposit on the CT when I joined.

As it stands I'll be buying a GM EV first unless something changes because I think it's a more thoroughly tested vehicle, and a better value . Which is why I have a deposit and order number on a Lyriq.

However, this is the best EV forum that I've encountered with the most actual user experience. As such there is a lot of value to be had around here. It would be more useful if the level of fanboy-ism was dialed way back. But just what I've learned about battery charging strategies alone here, is something that no other forum has mass experience with.

That said, it's true that my mild fascination with Tesla products has faded, which is a direct contradiction to most posters on this forum. I'm not down on them, just see them as over-rated for what they cost. I find the charm in Tesla's is the EV portion, not the Tesla portion. And the EV portion is about to not be unique, at all.

Also, Tesla's leadership seems to be reckless among other complaints I could post, but won't. Truthfully I'm not in to the whole 'political signaling' with my purchasing thing. But as a stock holder, Musk's behavior is, not helpful this last year.

I am probably as far from a Tesla Stan as exists yet who really appreciates what Tesla is pumping out. I am very well of the issues, have dealt first hand with some of them, but still haven't found a better alternative. The CT never ticked the BEV truck boxes for me. The Ford did a much better job for me and in the market for a pickup, that would be the one I'd buy now or a Rivian.

I find it interesting that you are all onboard with GM. My past experience with GM has been far worse than likely any other company than maybe Jaguar 40 years ago. I have been what felt like an alpha tester too many times with their products dating back to the 1970's diesel car fiasco. The only GM product I would touch now is a the Vette. I had a C8 on order and bought the model S instead. I have been burnt so many times by GM products I told my wife to smack me if I ever considered buying another one other than the aforementioned Vette.

Not to say that they don't get it right sometimes, but I've been on the wrong side of right with them too many times. Especially on their passenger cars. I don't know how they made their pickups look as ugly as did a few years ago.

I am on my 3rd Tesla now in over a year. While there is sometimes a 1 step forward, 2 or 3 back, level of progress with them, sometimes there are big leaps forward too. Being an owner, looking outward from within, really helped me appreciate the things they get right so much better. Just like racing someone around a track who has a fast line you can follow and learn from, being the pathfinder means you take some risks and don't get it right. All the other manufacturers have had years to catch up and in so many ways they are so far behind.

While I wasn't a big fan of my Y and it has gone to another owner, I am SO glad I didn't buy a MachE. All the issues that came up and the thermal throttling one limiting acceleration would have ticked me off to no end. BMW made their cars so hideously ugly that even though I had planned to buy one instead of the our 3, I just couldn't bring myself to put that ugly grill in my garage. I am pretty happy I bought in so to speak when I did with Tesla. It has been an interesting ride and really helped me understand BEVs that had decent range compared to the Ford Focus electric we had that wasn't any more useful than the BMW i3 I was considering at the time. I have to say though the Ford had zero issues in 100k miles. Fit and finish were very good. I bought it slightly used so the typical Ford/GM/Chrsyler depreciation was already factored in. That is what would scare me away from any Caddy, at least based on past purchases, is they just depreciate typically like a rock.

This forum is a great place to learn about things that apply to other BEVs. I know if I leave the Tesla ecosystem, a lot of what I've learned will definitely be applicable. It is pretty hard to go wrong with a Tesla in a lot of ways despite their issues.

 

[Suns_PSD]

I am probably as far from a Tesla Stan as exists yet who really appreciates what Tesla is pumping out. I am very well of the issues, have dealt first hand with some of them, but still haven't found a better alternative. The CT never ticked the BEV truck boxes for me. The Ford did a much better job for me and in the market for a pickup, that would be the one I'd buy now or a Rivian.

I find it interesting that you are all onboard with GM. My past experience with GM has been far worse than likely any other company than maybe Jaguar 40 years ago. I have been what felt like an alpha tester too many times with their products dating back to the 1970's diesel car fiasco. The only GM product I would touch now is a the Vette. I had a C8 on order and bought the model S instead. I have been burnt so many times by GM products I told my wife to smack me if I ever considered buying another one other than the aforementioned Vette.

Not to say that they don't get it right sometimes, but I've been on the wrong side of right with them too many times. Especially on their passenger cars. I don't know how they made their pickups look as ugly as did a few years ago.

I am on my 3rd Tesla now in over a year. While there is sometimes a 1 step forward, 2 or 3 back, level of progress with them, sometimes there are big leaps forward too. Being an owner, looking outward from within, really helped me appreciate the things they get right so much better. Just like racing someone around a track who has a fast line you can follow and learn from, being the pathfinder means you take some risks and don't get it right. All the other manufacturers have had years to catch up and in so many ways they are so far behind.

While I wasn't a big fan of my Y and it has gone to another owner, I am SO glad I didn't buy a MachE. All the issues that came up and the thermal throttling one limiting acceleration would have ticked me off to no end. BMW made their cars so hideously ugly that even though I had planned to buy one instead of the our 3, I just couldn't bring myself to put that ugly grill in my garage. I am pretty happy I bought in so to speak when I did with Tesla. It has been an interesting ride and really helped me understand BEVs that had decent range compared to the Ford Focus electric we had that wasn't any more useful than the BMW i3 I was considering at the time. I have to say though the Ford had zero issues in 100k miles. Fit and finish were very good. I bought it slightly used so the typical Ford/GM/Chrsyler depreciation was already factored in. That is what would scare me away from any Caddy, at least based on past purchases, is they just depreciate typically like a rock.

This forum is a great place to learn about things that apply to other BEVs. I know if I leave the Tesla ecosystem, a lot of what I've learned will definitely be applicable. It is pretty hard to go wrong with a Tesla in a lot of ways despite their issues.

I'd never detract from your personal experiences. That said, most of us don't get to own enough vehicles in a short enough period and enough miles to determine what's truly the least operational costs in the modern era, and which was just a rare lemon from the past.

Personally I've purchased many used and quite a few new vehicles and all of my GMs have been a tiny bit squeaky (as in build quality did not seem impeccable) but then, they just never broke, like at all. That includes my Corvette, my previous GMC truck with 240K & my current '18 GMC truck with 95K miles. Literally, nothing beyond the most basic preventive maintenance.

It's been about 7 years back now but I was working with a guy that ran the maintenance division of a large oil field servicing company and he told me a story that the company bought scores of pickup trucks, from GM, Ford, Ram & Toyota to compare them all long term. They even tested different engine configurations in each brand. He told me that when they looked at purchase price, lifetime mpg, repair costs, and resale value, that it wasn't even close. He told me GMs just cost a lot less to operate over their lifetimes and they were instructed to buy the GM V8 gassers for the company trucks from there on out and the duramaxes for the larger service trucks. Pro tip: don't buy used oil field trucks. He told me some of them had no record of oil changes for 60K+ mile spans.

This GM reliability report jives with my personal experience having owned all of the major brands myself.

I too am worried about Cadillac depreciation but in larger context I'm worried about EV depreciation. Once there are plenty of EVs out there, and technology continues to improve by leaps and bounds, they will all depreciate significantly imo. People like to claim that Teslas hold their value very well but I have a friend that made $35K on his used diesel F450 over the new price. All desirable vehicles are bringing top dollar now. Once people can buy a new one for the same price with immediate delivery, the used ones will drop in value.

 

[kelpcar]

75 kwh for 330 miles vs 105 kwh for 230 miles or 135 kwh for 300 miles or 180kwh for 400 miles.

you're bending the numbers a bit here.

No Y actually gets 330. And the rating for the R1X is 316/314 for that 135.

I get 3,2 mi/KHw on my 21" wheels. The Rivians seem to get 2.1-2.2. Definitely a big step down, but it's not 50%.

 

[nate704]

you're bending the numbers a bit here.

No Y actually gets 330. And the rating for the R1X is 316/314 for that 135.

I get 3,2 mi/KHw on my 21" wheels. The Rivians seem to get 2.1-2.2. Definitely a big step down, but it's not 50%.

I am not bending anything. I got those number from the manufacturer's websites.
Also, those review are not real average owner's review. I went to Rivian Owners Forum, but couldn't find any real world (by owners) average efficiency numbers from daily driving, long distance driving, etc. I hope I missed something and someone can find those numbers, but given that not many R1Ts in the wild, it will be a while to see those "real" reviews and feedback.
However, I found some interesting threads on that forum regarding the actual owner's experience with his/her delivered R1T. I was surprised that it has similar issues that Tesla cars have and even no HomeLink !!! lol

Took Delivery 4/6 in Texas; my ongoing observations...

www.rivianownersforum.com

10 Day Update. 1,000 miles with the R1T

www.rivianownersforum.com

JUST DELIVERED, BETTER THAN EXPECTED

www.rivianownersforum.com

 

[kelpcar]

I am not bending anything. I got those number from the manufacturer's websites.

The manufacturer (and EPA) says that the large 128/135 battery gets 314. Please indicate where "300" can be found. That's a 5% round down.

And we all know and should admit that Tesla ratings are involve the best shine possible on reality. While many makers get real world close to the EPA test results (Ford, Rivian included), they do not.

 

[finman100]

i get close to epa rating with my model 3. which means all model 3s get epa rating. seems fair.

 

[nate704]

The manufacturer (and EPA) says that the large 128/135 battery gets 314. Please indicate where "300" can be found. That's a 5% round down.

And we all know and should admit that Tesla ratings are involve the best shine possible on reality. While many makers get real world close to the EPA test results (Ford, Rivian included), they do not.

Thanks for pointing my typo but still that’s not my point. Twice the size and getting less range. See the poster above to prove that all the biased testing methods can result in different numbers. The range is totally up to how the actual owners/drivers drive the car.

 

[kelpcar]

Thanks for pointing my typo but still that’s not my point. Twice the size and getting less range. See the poster above to prove that all the biased testing methods can result in different numbers. The range is totally up to how the actual owners/drivers drive the car.

a "typo" you say.....whatever, bro.

And 75 is not half of 135. And don't try to use Sunny to explain away your multiple fudgings. You could have lived in the 'it depends' world.

The key question then is what is the R1S efficiency when going 75 in the Conserve mode (lowest height, front motor(s) only.

It looks like the preliminary estimate is switching from the quad motor to the dual only gets you a few miles (320+ vs 316). Two less motors, but needs a differential and other parts to be designed. Could be a long wait. Since my order is before March, I know which one I would take if that's the only gain.

 

[gt2690b]

a "typo" you say.....whatever, bro.

And 75 is not half of 135. And don't try to use Sunny to explain away your multiple fudgings. You could have lived in the 'it depends' world.

The key question then is what is the R1S efficiency when going 75 in the Conserve mode (lowest height, front motor(s) only.

It looks like the preliminary estimate is switching from the quad motor to the dual only gets you a few miles (320+ vs 316). Two less motors, but needs a differential and other parts to be designed. Could be a long wait. Since my order is before March, I know which one I would take if that's the only gain.

from the articles and reviews i've read the rivian is coming in at ~480 wh/mi while the y's are usually around ~270wh/mi.. not twice as good but better than just the 1.6x battery size difference ... also saw some videos with direct compare of the F150 to the rivian and the F150 is coming within 5% efficiency of the rivian and its a much larger vehicle... that said i still think the rivian is badass.. but also the F150 seems pretty badass as well.. i wish i would have ordered the 40k version already

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

What I find hilarious about the Rivian is the biggest issue I'm having is trying to decide which car to trade in.

2019 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Moab Edition
2018 Model 3 Performance with FSD

They're both worth approximately the same amount (within a couple thousand). This might seem odd, but even the KBB buy it now offers are pretty similar.

The Jeep has the one touch top that opens up so I can enjoy the sunshine. We get so little of it in the PNW that it matters to me a lot. The Jeep is also a great all weather car. I bought the Jeep after I bought my Model 3 when I attempted to sell the Jeep I had at the time to the dealer. The new one fixed most of what I didn't like about the old one so I bought it despite not really needing it. There is just something about Jeeps that I like. Maybe its the clumsy nature or simply being clumsy friendly. If the Rivian didn't exist I'd likely get an 4xe, and use it mostly to commute to work.

The Tesla has awesome handling performance, and the FSD stuff is fun to play around with regardless of how much I might complain about it from time to time. I've been a Tesla owner since 2015 so I'd miss out on a lot of the updates, but at the same time I'm convinced that Tesla will have to do some major sensor changes for FSD to really progress. I can't say they really made it very far in usefulness from 2018 to 2022. I basically use the same features as I used on Day 1.

I could also sell both, but who knows where car prices will go from now.

Long term I hope to have the Rivian plus some small EV that's either intended extremely low consumption like the Aptera (or similar) or a small EV that's fast.

 

[gt2690b]

What I find hilarious about the Rivian is the biggest issue I'm having is trying to decide which car to trade in.

2019 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Moab Edition
2018 Model 3 Performance with FSD

They're both worth approximately the same amount (within a couple thousand). This might seem odd, but even the KBB buy it now offers are pretty similar.

The Jeep has the one touch top that opens up so I can enjoy the sunshine. We get so little of it in the PNW that it matters to me a lot. The Jeep is also a great all weather car. I bought the Jeep after I bought my Model 3 when I attempted to sell the Jeep I had at the time to the dealer. The new one fixed most of what I didn't like about the old one so I bought it despite not really needing it. There is just something about Jeeps that I like. Maybe its the clumsy nature or simply being clumsy friendly. If the Rivian didn't exist I'd likely get an 4xe, and use it mostly to commute to work.

The Tesla has awesome handling performance, and the FSD stuff is fun to play around with regardless of how much I might complain about it from time to time. I've been a Tesla owner since 2015 so I'd miss out on a lot of the updates, but at the same time I'm convinced that Tesla will have to do some major sensor changes for FSD to really progress. I can't say they really made it very far in usefulness from 2018 to 2022. I basically use the same features as I used on Day 1.

I could also sell both, but who knows where car prices will go from now.

Long term I hope to have the Rivian plus some small EV that's either intended extremely low consumption like the Aptera (or similar) or a small EV that's fast.

Interesting conundrum.. if you're the only driver I'd likely sell both and jump on a rivian.. but I'm also an idiot

 

[tm1v2]

Interesting conundrum.. if you're the only driver I'd likely sell both and jump on a rivian.. but I'm also an idiot

@gt2690b Selling both for the Rivian isn't crazy, the Rivian could plausibly replace both @S4WRXTTCS's Wrangler and M3P. That is what's crazy and hilarious and cool about the Rivian...it could plausibly replace both a sports sedan and an off-roader, in terms of sheer capability.

@S4WRXTTCS Which driving experience would you sooner give up - the Jeep or the M3P? That's the one to sell for the Rivian. While the Rivian may have all the capability to replace either, it won't be the same driving experience, even if by all accounts it's the best driving pickup ever.

Personally I'm much more into sporty on-road driving than off-road, and I don't much care for removing roofs, so for me Rivian + M3P would be the combo to keep. And in fact that's our plan...R1T to replace our S P85 someday, while keeping our M3P.

The R1T can accelerate like an M3P, and probably get around corners better than any pickup has a right to, but there's no way it'll have the on-pavement handling of my M3P on Öhlins coilovers. The Rivian should be entirely better than our old Model S at everything though.

If your Jeep feels more unique and special to you than your M3P though, maybe the Jeep should be the keeper for you.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Interesting conundrum.. if you're the only driver I'd likely sell both and jump on a rivian.. but I'm also an idiot

Selling both sounds logical.
Selling the Rivian immediately after getting it would be logical too, but that's too cold and calculated for me.

I like that the M3P has split personalities. In one moment it can be self-driving (or make believe self-driving), and in the next moment you can take over and viciously attack a corner.

I don't do the corner attacking as much as I used to.

Maybe I'm getting old
Maybe its the roads themselves getting old, and beat up. More suited to ample side wall than low profile tires have to offer.
Maybe its all the traffic
Maybe its the fact that no one is paying attention so you gotta be more cautious than ever before

Lots of people don't like the soullessness of autonomous driving, but driving has gotten soulless. You just follow different people getting in your way on the way to work. In fact at times an E-bike is more fun as no one is getting in the way. It's just whatever you and the bike can pull off.

The openness of a Jeep is important to me, and I'm not sure why EV's haven't gotten onboard with it. They advertise their large sealed panoramic roofs as if we're supposed to seal ourselves off from the world.

Ranting at FSD and Elon in general is important to me. FSD is complete insanity, but maybe insanity is what it will take. Who really knows?

There really isn't a right answer to my conundrum, but I like the perspectives. When its all said and done I'm just throwing dice and seeing how it turns out. Odds are I'll trade in whatever I keep on the new shiny of the time.

Right now the shiny thing is the Rivian.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

@gt2690b Selling both for the Rivian isn't crazy, the Rivian could plausibly replace both @S4WRXTTCS's Wrangler and M3P. That is what's crazy and hilarious and cool about the Rivian...it could plausibly replace both a sports sedan and an off-roader, in terms of sheer capability.

@S4WRXTTCS Which driving experience would you sooner give up - the Jeep or the M3P? That's the one to sell for the Rivian. While the Rivian may have all the capability to replace either, it won't be the same driving experience, even if by all accounts it's the best driving pickup ever.

Personally I'm much more into sporty on-road driving than off-road, and I don't much care for removing roofs, so for me Rivian + M3P would be the combo to keep. And in fact that's our plan...R1T to replace our S P85 someday, while keeping our M3P.

The R1T can accelerate like an M3P, and probably get around corners better than any pickup has a right to, but there's no way it'll have the on-pavement handling of my M3P on Öhlins coilovers. The Rivian should be entirely better than our old Model S at everything though.

If your Jeep feels more unique and special to you than your M3P though, maybe the Jeep should be the keeper for you.

The nice thing about OUR plans is its at least shared.

Part of me thinks the idea of owning two EV's is selfish. It's limited resource just sitting there in some dudes garage as he drives his other EV.

To me vehicles have a purpose in life.

The purpose of life of an EV is to eat miles. Why even make it if it's not going to eat them up? Part of why I'm getting a Rivian is I noticed most of my miles were traveling. I used to have a Model S, and I laughed about how it was a size of a spaceship. But, I got used to that size and what a nice road car it was. The Rivian is just even more in the direction of having this comfortable vehicle to go a long ways in.

I like the simplicity of the Jeep in that it's just a Jeep. There isn't any explaining anything to anyone who's going to drive it.

I'm leaning towards trading in the Tesla, and keeping the Jeep. Part of this is that a Jeep is a legacy thing and it's not changing. EV technology and autonomous driving is changing rapidly. The Rivian is what I want today, and tomorrow its going to be some different thing.

What I'll really miss from the Tesla the organic changing nature of it. It's like one day it farts down the road, and the next day it doesn't. Actually mine never did, but there was a time in which some Tesla's did before the refs called the foul.

Rivian will change but just in a much more orderly fashion without all the drama.

 

[nate704]

Sell the Jeep and get the Rivian
Sell the 2018 M3P and get 2022 M3P
No Rivian or any other truck will match the performance of M3P on paved road in terms of handling, driving dynamics, etc.

 

[Suns_PSD]

Trade in the M3 so you have both an ICE and an EV in the event of global apocalypse.

Re: the lower Rivian efficiency, well yah, it's a TOTALLY different kind of vehicle even if the OP chooses to essentially use them in the same manner.

Someone above made a great point about efficiency, simply that a vehicle that relies greatly on it's range through best in class efficiency (i.e. MY) is going to lose a heck of a lot more range when you change to more aggressive wheels/ tires, haul a bike, haul any load, encounter a crosswind, weather is suboptimal, etc. than a vehicle that gets it's range through the use of a large battery pack and isn't particularly aero or efficient anyways.

I find some of the beauty of EVs is that refueling cost is pretty darn minimal making absolute efficiency from a cost perspective irrelevant to me personally allowing me to maybe choose the vehicle that I prefer.

 

[WhiteWi]

Who is going to make gas for you in event of global apocalypse?

 

[nate704]

In the event of global apocalypse, gas and electricity will be the first ones to disappear.
You gotta get weapons and ammo, so that you can steal gas/electricity and cars from other people!

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Sell the Jeep and get the Rivian
Sell the 2018 M3P and get 2022 M3P
No Rivian or any other truck will match the performance of M3P on paved road in terms of handling, driving dynamics, etc.

I don't find the 2022 M3P all the compelling over the M3P I have. It's essentially the same thing, but some bits look a bit better.

When I traded in my Model S back in 2018 the M3P was very compelling with its performance, and track mode. If I was really into going to the track I'd probably keep it purely as a track car.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Who is going to make gas for you in event of global apocalypse?

My global apocalypse vehicle is my E-Bike.

It's a highly efficient mode of transportation
It's quiet
You can put it into negative assist where its really intense regen. In fact you can crank it so high that its hard to pedal downhill. So I could generate energy using human power.
The charging requirements aren't that much so I could charge it from the sun rather painlessly. In fact I've thought about going on a long bike journey where I did exactly this.

In the actual event of apocalypse I wouldn't last long considering I don't own a gun, and I don't have a good emergency supply of food/water. Anyone from Rural America would frown at my lack of preparedness.