thesmokingman
Active Member
I could see the part of fudging to look good, that's clear. Still it leaves a sour taste with the IPO and the slow slow pace of production then not prioritizing paying customers.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Model Y P vs Rivian R1S
- Thread starter 1.21GW
- Start date
LionelHutz
Member
They had a fleet of pre-production cars. Their first commercial delivery was like a month ago, and now they're starting to ramp production. And they're building (and prioritizing) Amazon trucks at the same time.
Fine with me if they ramp slowly instead of rushing to build cars in a tent with materials from Home Depot.
If you're a paying customer, you don't want the product yet. Trust me. I've been there on the engineering side of consumer products that are far simpler than a modern car. Let Rivian employees test it in their daily lives and suss out some of the kinks before production ramp.
I agree with @Ogre, this looks basically like internal testing, what my industry calls "dogfooding." Calling initial internal-only vehicles production is disingenuous, but I'm not knocking them too hard for it. We need to be real about what it takes financially to launch completely a new car company. They probably felt they needed "delivery" numbers to keep up investment momentum.
When they start delivering to paying customers, and ramp up production a bit, that's when I'll consider the R1T a launched product. At the moment it has not launched yet (in my book).
It’s a tough choice.
If you have an issue with production and you are giving the cars to employees and internal fleet, it’s a lot easier to manage production problems. You fix the production and worry about fixing the specific truck later. If it’s a customer car, you have to fix both at the same time. Multiply this by hundreds of customers and this a huge problem. If 100 of your employees have windows that only roll up 50% of the time, you can tell them to suck it up for a while. If they are paying customers, you can’t.
Fundamentally, they are just very late. Tesla was 3-4 years late with the Roadster. The Model S was also hugely late. Rivian production is somewhere between those two, only Rivian has chosen to multiply the difficulty by 3.
The big problem with R1S buyers is the R1S is clearly their #3 priority behind both the R1T and the delivery van.
The problem I have is they are essentially lying to both their customers and retail investors about delivery dates to secure their IPO financing. This gives their deep pocket venture capital partners breathing room to liquidate at the expense of retail investors.
Lets get real here. Read the reporting around this and the Rivian is “the only electric truck in production”… but it isn’t. What they are doing now is not what anyone in the industry would consider production.
Prior to their “first commercial delivery” they had they had 15-20 hand built beta trucks. Their first delivery was a giant dog-and-pony show for the media and nothing more. How many commercial deliveries have they made so far to non-employees? 5? 10?
I agree, they should focus on getting it right. What gets me is the sham-wow and smoke and mirrors going on.
It’s easy to poke fun at some of the shenanigans Tesla pulled to get things out the door, but they got the cars out the door.
I can understand critique about slow initial production and only delivering the early production vehicles to employees. But when happens here without acknowledging that Tesla was doing exactly the same thing years ago it comes across as irrational fanboyism.
electrek.co
5 months later
cleantechnica.com
If Rivian delivers to non-employees before April, they will be ramping up faster than tesla did.
Tesla is prioritizing Model 3 deliveries to employees, but they can't resell for a profit
As we previously reported, Tesla will be prioritizing early Model 3 deliveries for their employees, which is a welcomed initiative for many...
electrek.co
5 months later
Tesla Model 3 Deliveries To Non-Employees Begin!! - CleanTechnica
There's a public Google Sheet people have been using for tracking Tesla Model 3 invites, configurations, and deliveries. It was apparently set up by someone on the Tesla Motors Club forum. I've written a couple of stories that referenced it since the crowdsourced data essentially shows the...
cleantechnica.com
If Rivian delivers to non-employees before April, they will be ramping up faster than tesla did.
Do/did you own an early Model S? Sure Tesla got them out the door. The roof, drive unit, charger, door handles, and more weren't ready for prime time...but out the door it all went.
Granted Tesla took care of early customers and our old Model S became a better car after a few years, thanks to updated parts.Yes it remains to be seen if the initial R1T production ramp vehicles will be any more reliable.
As an early Model S owner and R1T reservation holder, I'm very content to let Rivian take their time ramping up. I guess it helps that I've no need or desire to buy a big vehicle right now.
Last edited:
Do/did you own an early Model S? Sure Tesla got something out the door. The roof, drive unit, charger, door handles, and more weren't ready for prime time...but out the door it all went.
Yes it remains to be seen if the initial R1T production ramp vehicles will be any more reliable.
As an early Model S owner and R1T reservation holder, I'm very content to let Rivian take their time ramping up. I guess it helps that I've no need or desire to buy a big vehicle right now.
Totally agree.
We’re in a whole other phase of adoption right now.
People buying the Model S were early adopters. They were tolerant of flaws because they knew they were on the cutting edge.
My frustrations with Rivian are all about communications and media relations. Though given Tesla’s poor communications I suppose that it’s hard to complain.
I couldn’t quite place my finger on it but now I see it. It looks like a freakin’ Ford Flex. 
One thing that struck me about the Rivian is just how friggin tall it is.
The kid loading is exaggerates it, but this is a truck you climb up into. Also, that storage area looks surprisingly small for such a big vehicle. It’s way bigger than the Model Y, but looks quite a bit smaller than my buddies 4Runner which is in the same approximate size class as this thing.
This is a vehicle you climb into, most SUVs this size have a handle up above so folks can pull themselves into it.
I’m pretty sure the Cybertruck is quite a bit lower than this most of the time, the seats on the Model Y are probably 12” lower.
Frunk is pretty tall up there too. Don’t put a heavy ice chest in the bottom of it, you’ll blow your back out retrieving it.
Flip-wise, the frunk is cavernous compared to the one on the Model Y.
Definitely emphasizes the 4WD/ sportiness over utility in some ways.
These are not really the same kind of car.
The kid loading is exaggerates it, but this is a truck you climb up into. Also, that storage area looks surprisingly small for such a big vehicle. It’s way bigger than the Model Y, but looks quite a bit smaller than my buddies 4Runner which is in the same approximate size class as this thing.
This is a vehicle you climb into, most SUVs this size have a handle up above so folks can pull themselves into it.
I’m pretty sure the Cybertruck is quite a bit lower than this most of the time, the seats on the Model Y are probably 12” lower.
Frunk is pretty tall up there too. Don’t put a heavy ice chest in the bottom of it, you’ll blow your back out retrieving it.
Flip-wise, the frunk is cavernous compared to the one on the Model Y.
Definitely emphasizes the 4WD/ sportiness over utility in some ways.
These are not really the same kind of car.
I think this thread has helped me figure out new ways to be conflicted... lol
Best thing on my side is time. With Tesla continuing to raise prices and Rivian's unclear production timeline... I think this will need to be re-visited 6-12 months from now for better clarity.
I miss the days when you could just decide on the car you wanted and go buy it. With the desirable EVs that are coming to market, I think we will have a supply problem for quite a while.
Best thing on my side is time. With Tesla continuing to raise prices and Rivian's unclear production timeline... I think this will need to be re-visited 6-12 months from now for better clarity.
I miss the days when you could just decide on the car you wanted and go buy it. With the desirable EVs that are coming to market, I think we will have a supply problem for quite a while.
I said it before, worth repeating. Time is your friend here. In 2 years the picture will be a whole lot more clear.
Tesla’s manufacturing capacity will be much higher, Rivian’s will as well. It’s likely Ford and GM will have an SUV of some kind or another out by then. LOL… likely the Ford Flex. Prices are likely to have stabilized a bit too.
LionelHutz
Member
Do/did you own an early Model S? Sure Tesla got something out the door. The roof, drive unit, charger, door handles, and more weren't ready for prime time...but out the door it all went.
Yes it remains to be seen if the initial R1T production ramp vehicles will be any more reliable.
As an early Model S owner and R1T reservation holder, I'm very content to let Rivian take their time ramping up. I guess it helps that I've no need or desire to buy a big vehicle right now.
Family member has an S from years after the launch... roof, rear motor, chargeport all required early replacements. Now on its 4th or 5th set of door handles, with the most recent replacement this year.
FWIW it looks like the suspension is near max ride height in those photos. The suspension has something like 7" of adjustment and goes pretty low in "kneel" parking mode.
Pretty significant difference in tire size too. I don’t think you could make the truck on their site get this low with the other tires, you’d be bumping into the wheel wells.Family member has an S from years after the launch... roof, rear motor, chargeport all required early replacements. Now on its 4th or 5th set of door handles, with the most recent replacement this year.
FWIW it looks like the suspension is near max ride height in those photos. The suspension has something like 7" of adjustment and goes pretty low in "kneel" parking mode.
I think the R1S with these wheels and ride height would be popular.
andaconda
Active Member
I hope that Tesla never opens up their chargers to the public—- I can see the waiting lines now!
My 20 myp now gets 258 on 100% .. it has 14k miles. Not sure if Rivian will get 316 but if it does it’s much better. Range is a key factor. Honestly I would just wait a few years. The f150 looks promising, let them work out the bugs and make
More chargers. There’s no reason to jump in right now, the cake ain’t cooked yet
And I love everything on the r1s except the fugly front end. Big miss for me. Otherwise the truck is nice to look at (same for r1t)
More chargers. There’s no reason to jump in right now, the cake ain’t cooked yet
And I love everything on the r1s except the fugly front end. Big miss for me. Otherwise the truck is nice to look at (same for r1t)
I really thought about putting an order on the R1S about a half year ago. There were a lot of things I liked about it. The more I thought about the range compared to the battery capacity, the less it appealed to me.
As others have mentioned. its energy consumption means longer charge times and increased costs. Now factor in how bad that will be if you are towing something. I have towed a lot with my MY LR and it cuts my range about 30-50% depending on what I am towing. What makes this pretty tolerable is how fast I can recharge at a supercharger. I spent several thousand miles already towing pretty close to the towing capacity of the MY but the load wasn't super boxy but much wider than the MY.
Given the poor charging network, and even with a good one, towing is going to be a challenge with the Rivian especially if you are approaching max load and through in some hills. The Rivian could tow a lot of those but the range hit might be massive. Imagine 100 miles and then having to recharge that massive battery pack. It might take an hour as you'll need to top it off to go anywhere. I had a large turbo diesel truck for towing heavier loads and realized I didn't tow them often enough but I could refuel in 10 minutes and add 500 miles of range back and be back on the road.
The other performance specs looked impressive but at the end of the day, I value efficiency a lot. Hard to beat Tesla at that currently. Given the rise of inflation on energy costs, makes an even more compelling argument for me to go with an efficient vehicle to conserve resources in the first place. I also tend to drive a lot so I'd spend a lot of time with a Rivian on a home charger just to top it off.
As others have mentioned. its energy consumption means longer charge times and increased costs. Now factor in how bad that will be if you are towing something. I have towed a lot with my MY LR and it cuts my range about 30-50% depending on what I am towing. What makes this pretty tolerable is how fast I can recharge at a supercharger. I spent several thousand miles already towing pretty close to the towing capacity of the MY but the load wasn't super boxy but much wider than the MY.
Given the poor charging network, and even with a good one, towing is going to be a challenge with the Rivian especially if you are approaching max load and through in some hills. The Rivian could tow a lot of those but the range hit might be massive. Imagine 100 miles and then having to recharge that massive battery pack. It might take an hour as you'll need to top it off to go anywhere. I had a large turbo diesel truck for towing heavier loads and realized I didn't tow them often enough but I could refuel in 10 minutes and add 500 miles of range back and be back on the road.
The other performance specs looked impressive but at the end of the day, I value efficiency a lot. Hard to beat Tesla at that currently. Given the rise of inflation on energy costs, makes an even more compelling argument for me to go with an efficient vehicle to conserve resources in the first place. I also tend to drive a lot so I'd spend a lot of time with a Rivian on a home charger just to top it off.
I ordered the Rivian back in 2018. Very frustrating on the delays and baiting reservation holders this year that deliveries were going to start in the summer---> August---> September----> October, and now no word. I don't think they will survive in the long term on their own and will need to be bought out to survive. GM, Ford, and Tesla will come on line in the next year or two. Rivian simply cannot compete with these companies in terms of price, charging network, technology, and reputation.
Getting bought out is not likely an option now that they’ve gone public. They’re already valued at more than almost any other car company save Tesla, VW and Toyota.
