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Model Y to be based on Model 3 after all

Discussion in 'Future Vehicles' started by BluestarE3, Aug 2, 2017.

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  1. BluestarE3

    BluestarE3 Active Member

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    #1 BluestarE3, Aug 2, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
    Tesla Model Y is coming to market sooner using Model 3 architecture, says Elon Musk

    Elon changed his mind (or had his mind changed) about creating a whole new architecture for the Model Y as he had announced earlier this year. Presumably, this should bring the Model Y to market sooner.
    What I find even more encouraging is that, of late, he is able to put some of his "hubris" in check and accept advice from others. Now, about those Falcon Wing doors on the Model Y... :)
     
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  2. KarenRei

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    It'll slow the cash burn. They're still getting rid of the 12V and simplifying the wiring harness, which is IMHO the most important innovation.

    And if they do it on the same architecture as the 3 then they can backport it more easily.
     
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  3. electracity

    electracity Active Member

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    Elon is exiting puberty at about the right time.
     
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  4. cwerdna

    cwerdna Active Member

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    IMHO, it'd be a huge mistake to continue with the "FWD" on the Model Y unless they've really got all the kinks worked out by then. I'm amazed that they'd actually want to carry that over.
     
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  5. Xminus6

    Xminus6 Member

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    As an X owner I would be surprised/dismayed if they installed them on the Model Y. There are still issues with them that they haven't fully thought through. Also, if the Y is shorter in height than the X, it'll make things a lot more difficult to keep the head clearance the same on a shorter car. It's just right for me now but if the car were too much shorter it would begin to be a problem for folks 6'0" and over.
     
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  6. 3Victoria

    3Victoria Active Member

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    I am imagining large FWD that expose the front and rear seats.
     
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  7. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    I believe I said it elsewhere, but the FWD only made some sense on the Model X because it was a 3 row SUV and it gave an advantage for third row access. I don't see it making sense on a two row car (which Model Y would presumably be).
     
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  8. kev1n

    kev1n Member

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    from looking at what they did with S -> 3, i doubt they will sacrifice much space if any, most likely they will keep interior space the same and probably make it shorter and into a 5 seater max and hopefully without falcon wing doors.
     
  9. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    Even though Elon said the Y would have them way back before the X was released, I strongly doubt they will do anything like that with the Y. Upward opening doors are an iconic "cool" feature that attract a crowd and get car enthusiasts to gush about the car, but they don't work well in the real world. There is a reason upward opening doors have remained a feature of expensive sports cars and other high end cars. At this point the Model X is probably the highest volume production car with upward opening doors in history, and it's production numbers are a small blip compared to true mass market cars out there.

    The big windshield and the FWD on the X have been a massive headache for them. It's become a signature feature of the car though and it would be tough to ditch those features now and not be accused of cheapening the car too much. I still wouldn't be shocked if they came out with a redesigned X without the falcon wing doors and dropped the price. Then the first generation Xs would become collectors cars like the classic gull wing Mercedes.
     
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  10. zambono

    zambono Member

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    Somewhat disappointing, the X is based on the S and its a glorified minivan with low clearances compared to its competition. I was hoping the Y could be a decent vehicle for the misses but I would need it to be a crossover closer to the SUV side than the car one.
     
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  11. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

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    Mobility challenged people (elderly, overweight, bad backs,) children in car seats. There are major advantages to the falcon wings even with only two rows.

    I can see arguments in each direction, but personally I'd be more likely to buy a Y with FWD than one without.

    (Of course, not giving it FWD makes it more likely that I'll buy another X instead, which might be better for Tesla anyway...)
     
  12. electracity

    electracity Active Member

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    Tesla doesn't know steady demand for the model 3. This is one reason to kill Alien Dreadnought.

    BMW sells about 100K 3/4 series cars per year in the U.S. So 2000 a week. Making 10,000 model 3 per week with no ability to make model Y is not a good plan.

    Tesla could move the S/X to super premium only and build only in Fremont. Export these cars to the world. Have the 3/Y built is geographically dispersed factories.

    A basic business principle is that you don't "bet the farm" unless absolutely necessary. Tesla was designed to "bet the farm" through the release of the model 3. To unnecessarily continue that risk level through the model Y would be stupid.

    What matters is producing the Y soon and a decent margins.
     
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  13. electracity

    electracity Active Member

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    I share this unpopular opinion. Buy practically the Y needs to be more car than truck. It just takes too much energy to push a real upright SUV through the air.

    All they need to do is make the model 3 into a wagon, call it an SUV, then sit back and collect money.
     
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  14. Chopr147

    Chopr147 Active Member

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    I have been contemplating NOT getting the 3 and waiting for the Y. I only have this luxury because i'm driving an S :)
    Of course if my 21 yr old son gets a better job before my reservation comes up. he'll get it. With his OWN money! :)
    I hope this change gets the Y to the masses quicker
     
  15. KarenRei

    KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei

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    Weeeeell.... it depends on how willing you are to depart from traditional style trends.

    I'll point you to some of the lowest drag vehicles on Earth - for example, EcoMarathon competitors:

    [​IMG]

    Solar racers:

    [​IMG]

    And of course, road cars-that-would-have-been, like Aptera:

    [​IMG]

    Look at the ground clearance relative to the vehicle size. It's not simply true that "low ground clearance = streamlined".

    Unfortunately, with conventional styling, that usually is the case. Especially in the past it was - before aero belly pans became common on cars the underside of a vehicle was an aerodynamic mess, and you wanted as little air flowing through there as possible. With today's styling trends, while you have a smooth underside, the lack of an upwards curve near the rear still favours minimizing airflow under the vehicle. However, once you start to get into wing shapes, with a heavy rear taper, the impact of air under the vehicle vs. over decreases, and can even favour high clearance designs in some cases.

    So Tesla absolutely can make high clearance low drag vehicles - the question is how much of a "weirdmobile" you're willing to tolerate ;)
     
  16. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

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    What exactly does it take to make a "real SUV" in your opinion?

    The X is within a couple inches of the Ford Explorer in every dimension, including having more ground clearance when set to very high (and the normal ground clearance is the same as my '89 Suburban had.)
     
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  17. electracity

    electracity Active Member

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    I didn't say anything about ground clearance.
     
  18. electracity

    electracity Active Member

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    Unreasonably large and made by Ford with really bad gas mileage at 80 mph.
     
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  19. KarenRei

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    #19 KarenRei, Aug 3, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2017
    You were responding to a post complaining about the clearance, and saying that the person's wants are unrealistic because of aerodynamics. I responded pointing out that they're not - if they're willing to accept unconventional styling.

    A SUV or SUV-like crossover fundamentally requires a large frontal area, because interior height and width are part of what defines an SUV. But it can compensate for this with a low drag coefficient - and this can be done with good ground clearance. Picture something like Aptera, scaled up on all axes and with a slight (but minimal) kammback to allow for +3 rear seating or +3 middle / +2 small rear seating. And of course "ruggedized" (you wouldn't want the Aptera wheel design on a vehicle designed for rough conditions... at the very least, rubberized and/or trivially removable skirts). Cd might be something like 0.17 or so. Maybe even 0.16.

    But again... I know that under current style trends most people would see that as weird. I'm just saying, yes, you can do it. And you could go with a design partway between the aero extremes and conventional styling, to make it more mass market - trying to reach an optimal sales / efficiency balance point. Maybe accept a Cd of 0.19 or so to "deweirdify" it a bit; that would still mean over a 20% larger frontal area vs. Model 3 for the same energy consumption, while the long taper means tons of rear storage.

    (My dream vehicle is a high-clearance streamliner where the rear taper is a vertically-adjustable rear hatch, so you can basically choose the balance between interior space and aerodynamics based on your current needs, ranging from hyper-efficient streamliner (hatch angled down) to people carrier or cargo van (hatch slightly down or level) to pop-top camper (hatch angled up) - or, if the adjustable hatch is outright removable, pickup truck. Seriously, what couldn't you do in such a vehicle?)
     
  20. zambono

    zambono Member

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    It was me, I don't see it. I look at the X and I don't see the Sports in SUV. I see the people carrier which is fine for many but wouldn't work for our use. I have the S as the people carrier I would want a smaller SUV for all the other family activities including adverse weather with a good amount of snow on the ground.
     

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