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Moderation issues, broken PMs, etc (and suggestions for how to fix these things).

Discussion in 'Site Feedback' started by wk057, Nov 13, 2020.

  1. wk057

    wk057 Senior Tinkerer

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    #1 wk057, Nov 13, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2020
    This thread will probably not get approved since it's critical of TMC, but will give it a shot I guess since I can't start a PM @doug, @danny, @Doug_G, or anyone else directly.

    This is the "Site Feedback" section, after all, and critical feedback should be allowed, so consider that before disapproving my post, please.

    ---

    TLDR version
    -

    To TMC Staff: Please put my account back to normal. If not, please let me know what needs to be done for this to happen. Also, see some suggestions below on how to make these processes better overall.

    To other folks: If you've PM'd me and I've not seemed to reply, please just contact me outside of TMC. I'm not too hard to find. My PMs are just broken here right now, and I unfortunately have no way to fix this other than to beg the staff (thus far unsuccessfully) to restore functionality to my account.

    ---

    Going to be pretty blunt here, take it or leave it. Nothing sugar coated, but nothing that violates any forum rules. This is the "Site Feedback" section after all.

    I've been on "moderation" for about two months now, following an actual ban (that fortunately got lifted after some public outcry by others).

    Unfortunately with a volunteer moderation team and no global moderation queue, some posts are approved in a reasonable time, others take literal weeks before approval. This effectively makes moderation a shadow ban in most sub-forums here. Let me explain: since, when eventually approved, moderated posts pop into existence at the point in the thread they were originally posted, regardless of how much has happened in the thread between posting and approval. So in high traffic threads, most people will never even see the posts even once they're approved since they could be pages back from the current point of the conversation. That's basically a shadow ban.

    To fix this is simple: Moderated posts need to come into existence at the end of the thread at the time of approval. Then at least this would be tolerable and sane. Also, make the moderation queue global and not specific to a forum. If rules are enforced consistently, it shouldn't matter which mod approves a post.

    I won't beat around the bust on this: the actions by TMC staff against my account here definitely were overly heavy handed and taken over some relatively minor drama in a high traffic thread. They clearly did not take time to actually go through the content or look into the seemingly coordinated false reports made by the trolls before taking any action against my account. I fully understand the annoyingness of being a forum mod (I'm an admin at a much larger unrelated forum, so I get it)... but damn. As a mod at some point you have to just step back, realize who the long term valuable contributors are, and who the trolls are, and act accordingly. Regardless, there's been pretty uneven enforcement of the rules around here, leading to outrageously disproportionate penalties to my account specifically. Things that just get "snipped" by some mods are apparently ban worthy with others. There's way worse "offenses" still in threads all over the forum that have zero enforcement against them, yet here I am, a valued contributor for over half a decade, being punished over basically nothing.

    To fix this: Consistency. Set some solid publicly defined rules and examples as to what's appropriate, what's not, and what enforcement action staff is allowed to take. Some type of consistent system that leads to moderation, bans, etc, along with valid remedies to the same (time based, merit based, whatever). Don't leave so much open to be subjective so that false reports by trolls cause these kinds of headaches. Staff enforcement should be uniform across all staff and sub-forums. If something is ban-worthy in one thread, but acceptable in another... well, that's just stupid and needs to be addressed. Also, reports should definitely be weighed in some fashion. If trolls falsely report the post of a long-time contributor with stellar post ratings, and there's nothing glaringly wrong with the post (like, it's not a spam ad for viagra or other indication of a hacked account, not a personal attack, vulgar, or otherwise actually problematic), then the report should be ignored and enforcement action taken against the account who falsely made the report.


    Anyway, regardless of this, even if everything claimed against me by the trolls was true, temp bans followed by months of a locked down account seems pretty excessive for a handful of posts calling out BS (that admittedly could have been phrased better, but nothing ban worthy whatsoever). For those unaware, check out the "Sudden loss of range" thread... I'm basically on moderation for trying to shutdown obvious trolls there.

    Unfortunately part of this is that I can not start any new PMs (with anyone, including staff), and in most cases (aside from convos with moderators/staff it seems) I can not even continue existing conversations reliably. The replies I made seem to be on some kind of pseudo-hold like other posts when I send messages, and people don't seem to receive replies in most cases. This has lead to a bunch of people getting pissed at me for not replying to ongoing conversations (some more important than others), and many of these people I don't have reliable non-TMC contact info for because I didn't think it was necessary and never thought my account standing here would come into question.

    To fix this: Being on moderation should have no impact on PM functionality whatsoever. If people start reporting PMs, that's one thing. But private and public posts are not the same.

    I can't modify my signature to reflect this, either, since my account is restricted. I'd like to add something like, "My account is restricted here, which has broken my PMs. If I don't reply this is not my fault and I apologize.")

    Moderation and other such account restrictions (temp bans, etc) should be public information. There's currently no public indication that my account is restricted. This just leads to confusion by folks when my posts are sometimes noticed out of order, PMs don't get replied to, etc. This should be noted in the avatar section of affected accounts clearly, and possibly in the signature area. "Posts by this account are subject to approval by TMC Staff" or something. If posts are potentially being censored by staff, people have a right to know this.

    Also, moderated posts should automatically note this with an addendum of some sort: "This post was originally made proceeding (insert link to post that originally the last post in the thread when posted) on 2020-xx-xx at hh:mm:ss. It was released from moderation by TMC staff 2020-xx-xx at hh:mm:ss." This, combined with appending posts to the thread when approved, would eliminate confusion.

    Long story short, if "moderation" is something that's going to be used on long term contributors and not just the people who should be subjected to it (new accounts, problem accounts, etc), then it needs to work and not break everything in the process.

    I honestly don't know what's happened to this forum. Much of the staff seem generally disinterested, and the administration appears to be mostly the same. Volunteer staff is great for small forums, but at some point it becomes too much for any volunteer team to effectively handle... and I think that's where we are. There's just not enough incentive for staff to take an appropriate amount of time and effort to review reports, and not enough staff to effectively handle a non-global moderation queue across the entire forum. At this point there probably should be at least some paid moderators here that give the forum undivided attention, with the volunteer mods a supplement to that.

    Anyway, I've been trying to not let the "why do you still bother with TMC" folks win here, but it's kind of tough when so much is going wrong here lately.

    Putting my account back to normal would go a long way towards restoring some faith here.

    If not, I may just be falling for the sunk cost fallacy, though, with regard to my contributions here, and may just have to get past that mental rut and move on if that's the case.
     
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  2. wk057

    wk057 Senior Tinkerer

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    Thanks to the mod that approved my thread.

    While I'm glad (and admittedly surprised) that it was eventually approved, this is kind of also a case and point about moderation being impractical for a regular user, though, as I explain above.

    Why? Because it took over 3 days for the above post to appear publicly. I made the post Friday afternoon, and it was still invisible as of about 2PM today, over 3 days later... at some point between 3 and 5-ish it was approved and showed up.

    Now I hear you, "So what. It was approved. What are you whining about?"

    Here's the problem: Imagine if I made a post in one of the high traffic threads on the forum (like one of the investor threads, or other mega threads with various hotly debated topics), and it didn't actually show up for over 3 days (and, as noted above, pops into existence when/if approved in the place it was originally posted, not at the end of the thread as would be logical). What would happen? No one would see it. It'd be buried under dozens or hundreds of posts before it even saw the light of day. So it'd be pointless to participate as a result. No one's going back pages and pages to look for posts that may have popped into existence. They're reading things as they happen... which is why I basically can't contribute to anything here while my account is still in this state.

    In the case of threads, not many will see new threads that are delayed like this. Why? Because they aren't "new" by the time they're approved, so don't appear in any of the hot lists. Sure, someone interested in "Site Feedback" might dig down a few threads, or folks who follow me might have been notified about it when approved, but that's pretty limited.

    Repeating my plea: Please fix my account.
     
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  3. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I agree that this portion of the moderation for the site is broken. With posts popping into existence pages backs makes it so that the active participants are not likely to ever see the posts. I have experienced this when someone new to the thread replied to one of these posts that materialized into the past, and I was like "I never saw that information how did I miss it?". Such that I had to search for posts from WK057 to find what he had written about.

    It would be very helpful if the moderated posts could get a new time stamp so they properly show up at the end of the thread when they are approved. (A note indicating when they were originally posted would be helpful, but not absolutely necessary.)
     
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  4. wk057

    wk057 Senior Tinkerer

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    Yeah, I've unfortunately had to just give up on participating in most threads in any meaningful way for the past couple of months due to the being-on-moderation issues. I tried for a while, but it's just pointless. The information I provide ends up essentially lost, so why bother? Most people don't realize, nor are willing to take the time to go back and find the approved posts even if they're aware of the moderation issue... so it's pretty useless to waste my time in any active thread with anything meaningful.

    It's more of an issue with the lack of a global moderation queue, it seems. It would work just fine the way it is (posts popping into existence in original order after approval) if the delay were no more than say, 15-30 minutes max. I've tried to time some of my posts in the Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software thread to coincide with when I see a moderator of that section is active and online, like @efusco or even a global admin like @doug, but that's hit or miss. Sometimes it works out (get approved within minutes) and other times still days. This is the best yet I think, approved within a few minutes: Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software ... actually got some engagement! Most of the remaining posts since being put on moderation (looks like mid September?) had limited or no engagement whatsoever.

    There are enough moderators here on the forum as a whole that I think enabling a global moderation queue would at least improve things significantly... and that should be a pretty quick fix vs any of the other recommended changes I've noted above. At least this way the folks who are shadow banned^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H er, "on moderation" will have a better chance of a post getting approved in time to actually be seen if the full mod team is on the moderation queue, vs having to wait on the few (as few as one it seems?) mod per forum section to work their small queue.

    My guess at this point is that this is just a way to get me to quit posting here entirely. If that's the case, it's working. I'm pretty much done at this point, since there's just no sense in posting when my posts have a random dice roll of time between minutes and days (longest so far has been 10 full days) added to when they actually appear.

    It's mainly annoying because I do feel like I've contributed quite a bit to this site over the years. Some of the threads I've started here are still some of the most highly viewed threads on the site, some with close to a million views. In aggregate, tens of millions. I'm sure that's directly generated revenue for the site. I've also contributed, as a supporting member, a non-trivial amount of actual funds to the site. All of this because I believed it's been the best place to share my contributions, for the most part.

    Unfortunately, too often than not, from the staff's perspective it's easier to push out someone like myself (who was recently mainly battling a slew of misinformation spread by a vocal group of trolls), not investigate the actual issues, or do anything meaningful to actually reduce the noise. Instead, since the groups of trolls cause the most headaches for staff when faced with meaningful opposition to their garbage (ie: me), the staff squelches me instead (based on slews of baseless reports from the trolls) to save on workload while allowing most of the trolls to go about their business as usual. As far as I'm aware, only one of the main users involved in all of this was ever put on moderation as well (I've no way to know if they still are or not). This seems pretty backwards to me.

    Anyway, it's all a bit disheartening to be pushed out of a community over such nonsense. Any reasonable outside individual could take even a cursory look at the facts in my particular case and just be like, "wtf..." (In fact, as noted before I admin at an unrelated forum. I was discussing my issues here at TMC with a mod over their the other day in a staff chat. I kind of wanted to just validate that I wasn't completely off base on all of this. Well, they were completely baffled by how this has been handled here and basically told me to stop wasting my time on "a forum that doesn't care about its top members". *shrugs*)
     
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  5. ohmman

    ohmman Plaid-ish Moderator

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    Global moderation queues don't necessarily solve the issue. They may help, but it's no guarantee. Supermoderators see the entire moderation queue, and there are three of us. In many cases, we are aware that certain moderators are handling reports or posts by a certain member, so we ignore those posts in the queue. Without the full context of the complaint, it's impossible to know what's proper to approve and what's not, and it's easy to make a mistake unless the post is transparently benign.

    Regarding time stamps, I don't believe Xenforo has support for that. I've also wanted to time-shift posts when I'm merging threads, because two merged threads are mixed by timestamp and it's like shuffling two similar but different decks of cards - the result can be a mess.

    I don't know why Conversations would be affected. My experience with moderation is that it merely queues up public facing messages and doesn't impact Conversations. If you're still having trouble with them, try responding to one of our Conversations, @wk057, and I'll let you know what I see.
     
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  6. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Well-Known Member

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    I sure hope this can be resolved and that it doesn't come to that. I think we get a lot of value from your posts. (I know I do, and I look forward to what you will post in the future.)
     
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  7. wk057

    wk057 Senior Tinkerer

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    Thanks for the note! Good to know that there are some moderators who can see the full queue at least.

    This... is where I'm confused. If the rules are applied evenly to everyone, then there shouldn't be an issue with posts if the post itself does not violate the forum rules, no? If there are different rules being applied to different users or different posts, then this sounds like a problem.

    I'd be curious as to any examples where this makes sense, if any could be shared.

    Yeah, definitely seems to be a limitation of the software... kind of like the static 20-posts-per-page limitation. The software seems to rely on post timestamps being linear with the post number.

    That said... I don't see how a software modification to make this possible would be _that_ difficult. But who knows.

    It's definitely strange, and isn't a problem with 100% of conversations.

    For example, my conversations with moderators and admins seem to work perfectly fine (provided I've already had a thread going with them, since I can't start a new thread). So if I respond to one of our convos, you'll get it without issue. Seems to be the case with other mods and @doug as well (even though @doug hasn't responded to me in months), and I'm guessing @efusco and others are mostly powerless on this since I think @doug is the one who put me back on moderation back in September. (I don't think he actually examined the situation in any real detail before doing so, but I digress.)

    PM issue mostly seems to be an issue with conversations people started with me since being put on moderation. If I reply to a conversation with a non-mod, one of three things happens (in order of likely to least likely):
    • The reply shows up for me, but the other user can not see it on the site and does not get an email notification. (Confirmed this with several users.)
    • Or, I'll send the reply, and after initially showing up, it will eventually be as if I never sent it (won't show up for me in the thread, despite initially showing... happened less, but has happened)
    • Or, it will work fine and they'll get my reply as normal. (So far only 2 non-mods have successfully received messages, and both people I'd had pre-moderation convos with).
    I kind of gave up on taking time to reply to PMs at this point, since it seems to be a roll of the dice waste of time.

    I don't know why PMs would be affected by whatever restrictions are on my account, but there's definitely something happening. The restrictions obviously do something to PMs, since I can't start new outbound PMs at all (the option isn't even there)... so doesn't seem like a stretch that it screws something else up.

    My initial thought is that outbound messages were being put into moderation as well, just like public posts, but was assured by a few people that this wasn't the case. My only guess is that there is some kind of overlap with the moderation of public posts and PMs that is causing some to get lost, essentially.

    I have at least a dozen PMs in the past couple of months that I replied to, where the next message in the thread is something along the lines of "Did you get my message?" right after my initial reply.

    *shrugs*

    ---

    Overall, I think most of these issues are actually pretty tolerable for an account on temporary moderation for a relatively short period (week or so). However, since there are accounts like mine that are seemingly going to be stuck with these restrictions forever, though, with no obvious path to freedom... I think the processes need some significant reform, otherwise it makes contributing pretty futile.

    Aside from pleading to make the technical side of these restrictions more sensible, the only thing I can do is continue to show that the court of public opinion is on my side here (with the exception of the trolls and related folks who started the mess in the first place) and keeping my fingers crossed that @doug or @danny will one day do the right thing...
     
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  8. ohmman

    ohmman Plaid-ish Moderator

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    Sharing specifics of moderation actions is generally not done here, but I could maybe clarify a little. The moderation queue doesn't only consist of posts from users that are on probation. Messages get dropped there for a number of reasons - for instance, referral links in their post, potential spam, IP addresses that are questionable, heavy cross-posting, etc. So we are scanning those posts for any number of issues. Whether a member is on a "shorter leash" or not is definitely something that could happen if they are repeat offenders, have ignored moderator guidance in the past, or have a special condition that has been requested in order to keep a thread sane.

    I can imagine a case where user scabbyattitude continues to bring up out-of-true rims on every Tesla. The issue is debunked, but scabbyattitude won't let it drop and injects it into every single thread in which he participates. Whenever it's mentioned, the thread goes off the rails with people responding to the false claims, so scabbyattitude gets a warning to not mention out-of-true rims, and is put on probation. If I'm not familiar with that situation, I might see a post that looks to be following the rules of the site and approve it improperly. A post by member logicalandhumble might be able to post something about out-of-true rims, however, as they don't have that history and perhaps aren't being purposefully contentious. Different rules? Kind of, but I hope this makes some sense.

    Reminder that this example is entirely fabricated. ;)

    I am not an admin, so I have no insight into the back end of the software, but I'll do some reading on Xenforo forums and see if I can figure anything out about this, then recommend it to @doug.
     
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  9. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Well-Known Member

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    Can you share if there is there a normal time period that people are put on moderation? (Week, month, year, forever?)
     
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  10. wk057

    wk057 Senior Tinkerer

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    #10 wk057, Nov 18, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2020
    Well, I've made a final plea to @doug in an existing PM thread to please restore my account to normal. My guess is this will fall on deaf ears, as usual, since he's not responded to a single message in about two months now.

    I did some stats on posts I've made in the months prior to being put on moderation, and posts for the past two months since being put on moderation. The takeaway: posts I've made since being put on moderation have received over 90% less engagement than posts prior to moderation (ratings, replies, quotes, etc). This pretty clearly tells me that being on moderation basically prevents the bulk of users from ever seeing my posts, most likely due to the issues with timestamping as described above.

    Given that, I see no reason to participate here further.

    • My posts provably aren't getting seen by a majority of users
    • My private messages with non-staff are broken, for whatever reason, due to the restrictions
    • And the most irritating aspect: TMC staff (at least those with any authority on this matter) don't seem to give a damn about me, my contributions here, etc... so why should I bother contributing and driving further traffic here? (Have got a lot of cool stuff coming up, too!)
    First, I don't even get the courtesy of being told I was put on moderation at all in the first place. I only found out when people told me links to news posts I sent externally were broken.

    Worse, the folks with the authority to do anything just completely ignore me on the matter. I feel like at the very least I should be given minimal respect and actually told what needs to be done to remove these restrictions and when/if that can happen. But no, instead I'm 100% ignored for months with no end to this nonsense in sight. Frankly, that's just disrespectful and I don't feel like I deserve to be treated as such.

    Honestly, it just sucks... and I'm admittedly pretty upset about this whole mess. I've put countless hours into things I've done in this community, and this whole situation just feels so wrong on so many levels. I'm seriously quite saddened by all of this... frustrated, angry, and sad. Probably more than I should be, admittedly.

    But I don't know what else to do at this point. I can't keep wasting my time here if I'm not wanted. Until my account is restored to normal, I'm going to do my very best to restrain myself from posting anything outside this thread (and even then, only if it makes some sense to do so towards some resolution on this).

    Sorry to the folks who benefit from my contributions here, but I simply can't continue to put forth effort here while being completely disrespected by the folks who directly benefit from those efforts.

    ---

    TL;DR - The restrictions on my account provably limit my posts' exposure to the point where it's useless to post. The staff continues to disrespect me by ignoring this issue entirely and keeping my account in this state with no path forward. Since they don't care, I'm going to do my best to stop bothering and not care as well, despite being upset and frustrated with the whole situation.
     
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  11. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Well-Known Member

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    And sadly it appears to be falling of deaf ears. :(

    I hope at some point this will get resolved and you can continue to contribute.
     
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  12. HankLloydRight

    HankLloydRight No Roads

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    I also would like to add my support for @wk057 to have his account restored to normal.

    His contribution to TMC, as well as the entire Tesla ecosphere is immeasurable.

    It is a tragedy to lose his involvement in this community.
     
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  13. BPeter

    BPeter Member

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    Damn, I was wondering why @wk057 dropped off the sudden loss of range thread again.
    I appreciated the posts, always had some interesting and valuable information in them.
     
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  14. thimel

    thimel Member

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    I also appreciate his posts and would like to see him active again.
     
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  15. wk057

    wk057 Senior Tinkerer

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    #15 wk057, Jan 5, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
    I still have a lot of people referring me to various TMC posts for comment (and a lot that really need some comment, too... tons of misinformation being flung around). But I'm going to stick to my original decision on this: Until @doug (or another admin) fixes my account, I will not be participating in other threads here.

    To note, I've tried contacting the admins various ways for months now with absolutely zero response to-date.
     
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  16. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Well-Known Member

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    @doug for instance this post is dated from Tuesday, but I don't think it was released from moderation until today, most of a week later. In most threads that would mean that almost nobody would see them, which makes it a waste for him to bother contributing.

    Please, can you consider releasing his account from requiring moderation?

    For example I think @wk057 has valuable information about how Gruber is repairing out of warranty battery packs that people here considering using their service should be aware of.
     
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  17. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    I appreciate the message. However wk has repeated indicated he will not follow forum rules while publicly playing a victim. We see no reason to change his status at this time.
     
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  18. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Well-Known Member

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    #18 MP3Mike, Jan 11, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
    I just don't know what to say about that. I have never seen any posts from @wk057 that were that bad, but maybe they got moderated away before we would have seen them?, and he has said that he wants to follow the rules, but it would help if there was some clarification on them and how they are enforced.

    Would it make any difference if he point blank said that he is willing to, and will, follow the rules?

    In the end it is more of a loss to TMC and the whole community than it is to him. Which makes me sad.
     
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  19. Battpower

    Battpower Supporting Member

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    #19 Battpower, Jan 11, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
    I would add that personally I have appreciated WK's contributions. @doug , It is a shame if he really refuses to follow the rules, but there is always the ignore button!

    I haven't always appreciated WK's approach to making responses, but on balance I would rather have the option to ignore. Issues outside of TMC (if these are an issue) should stay outside.

    I also agree that PM should remain active once started. It gets confusing and frustrating otherwise.

    Finally, it is a hassle when members on moderation have their posts appear way back in an active thread potentially days or weeks after being posted. A moderator quote of the post in question made when the original post is released would at least make sure the post gets noticed.

    Edit: On reading my post it sounds like I am condoning breaking of forum rules, which is NOT what I intended. More about working with members - especially ones who have committed a lot of time and effort - to keep things working out.
     
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  20. wk057

    wk057 Senior Tinkerer

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    Thanks for the note, @doug. It's good to see you're still around. (Also, please see my PM in the unrelated ancient thread I had to dig up again to PM you.)

    So, seems I may finally have a missing piece of this puzzle.

    I was given the screenshot of a moderator's note that read, in part, "Both of you stop. One more mention of the other individual will result in a temporary ban."

    Well, that's fine...... except I never received this message. I've looked through emails, alerts, screenshots, etc. I never got this. So apparently I'm being punished for not following a rule that was laid out by a moderator that I was never informed about.

    *sigh*

    If you're going to set arbitrary rules for bans, they should be clearly communicated to the correct people. I have no issue following the rules here, and I've noted this to doug previously. His house, his rules.

    But if I'm being punished for something I was never even informed about, you're gonna have to chalk that up to a screw up on the staff side and cut me a break here.
     
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