More Model 3 changes and leasing now available

[mattjs33]

Well why the hell are you here then, self flagellation?

You should know by now, but since you asked it's because Tesla is by orders of magnitude the most interesting automotive story of our time. Anyone with any interest at all in the automotive industry should find them compelling, no matter how you feel about them.

If I care about the company? … I'm not worried that if they don't sell a $35,000 car they are going to die.

No, you should be worried if they DO sell a $35K car. They're doing so at a loss.

What's funny is you insist Tesla needs a relatively inexpensive car to survive in the market yet you simultaneously don't acknowledge that selling a cheap car that they lose money on will kill them faster than demand slowing on their more profitable cars.

Wrong. In all the years I've been here, I've never insisted they needed an inexpensive car to survive in the market. In fact, if it was me running the company I would have stayed in the premium end of the market. They were doing fantastic there.

It was Elon who decided he had to move downmarket, because he seems bent on being declared the world's savior or something. Eliminate fossil fuel dependency, something like that. More EVs in more hands. I would have waited another decade maybe.

I have also long acknowledged that Tesla cannot sell the $35K Model 3 profitably. I got a lot of pushback on this despite Elon Himself saying so.

My point of contention has long been that they should never have said they would sell a $35K version, if they knew they could not profitably do so. And my opinion is, they knew a long time ago they couldn't, yet kept saying they could. But as long as they said so, they had an obligation to provide the product they advertised to great fanfare, to the customers that put money down for it.

We can argue whether or not they have reasonably fulfilled that obligation, due to all the upselling they've done and how hard they've made it to actually buy the thing, for what I suspect will be a very short time.

It's not a weak argument because its FACTUALLY true. Any 35K in 2016 is 37K today. Check inflation calculators yourself if you don't believe me.

Regardless, the $35K Model 3 is here today and you can order one. Full stop.

Anything Tesla wants to do, after this month or whatever is up their discretion.

The 35K Model 3 today with the partial premium interior is a ridiculous deal. Anyone who KNOWS about AND doesn't take it have to forever hold their silence.

I'll say this, it IS a ridiculous deal. Which is why it likely won't last, I think we agree.

I myself took beatings when I said the $35K Model would not be profitable. it never was, and wont at least through 2019.

We agree on this as well, pretty sure we always have.

Go buy a Tesla already @mattjs33 - you got no excuses man.

Well, it's this whole thing about not having a car payment right now, and really enjoying that. It's not really in the budget right now, and to be frank, I probably would not buy a Tesla until they get their sh!t sorted out. In any case, $35K buys a hell of a lot of used car, and I'm not one to be afraid of that. When I'm ready, maybe Tesla is in that conversation but I don't really need EV so we'll see.

I don't see a couple hundred thousand Teslas making much difference, so it's hard for me to buy into the "mission". As long as the heavy transport problem goes unsolved (ships, trains, airplanes) and as long as the third world lags behind developmentally, the earth is pretty much f*cked no matter what.

 

[vickh]

I’d be willing to bet that anyone who buys a $35K SR model and then wants to sell it a few years from now will do incredibly well with regards to resale value. To get a software locked SR+ for $35K is an absolute steal and I don’t see that price lasting for very long. Elon offered it last night to mitigate the bad will the company was getting for not having delivered any $35K vehicles since they opened up orders on February 28th. They can’t be making money on an SR+ at $35K and they won’t allow it to go on for long. I wish I needed another car but we already have two Model 3’s. Otherwise I’d be placing my order for an SR today. It’s the best deal Tesla is ever going to offer on any of their vehicles, especially with the remaining tax credits and incentives.

That is my plan exactly to trade up the SR to the Model Y. Esp. if they "extend" the tax credit like the current bipartisan proposal

Question b/f I call my DA is some people are getting AP @ $35K??? Mistake?

I had a similar experience with a "mistake" EAP email confirmation from a DA for a CPO MS. They refused to budge or credit anything for it so I cancelled.

 

[Gpa9504]

Possibly one of Tesla's primary mistakes is simple communication. Not completely positive because I am late to the game (last 4 years)- but seems they claimed "the price is the price". No negotiating. You order- we build. We are NOT like any other car manufacturer/franchise dealership model. Then...they sort of start acting like one: reduced price offers on "existing inventory" (applied inconsistently among buyers), price changes that seem very much like "sales", etc. Which is cool- but creates confusion for a company that tweets most of its information. No real advertising or marketing. Not saying this is a good or bad- just confusing...at least for me.

Everything else is NO different than a regular car company. Case in point- two friends just bought Ford Raptors. One bought 2019 when it first showed up for full MSRP, second bought last week from same dealer, same truck but different color (all same options) for $6000 less. Raptor #1 has been in the shop several times. Buyer #2 loves his but not happy with paint (sound familiar). But neither is hating Ford right now. They pretty much knew what they were buying. Of course- Ford isn't mucking around with the advertised MSRP- just the new sales price.

It's very strange how much emotion Tesla stirs up. I've had my share for and against them, believe me. Sort of boils down to communication.

Love the cars though. Truly amazing...

 

[Rawlings2019]

You should know by now, but since you asked it's because Tesla is by orders of magnitude the most interesting automotive story of our time. Anyone with any interest at all in the automotive industry should find them compelling, no matter how you feel about them.



No, you should be worried if they DO sell a $35K car. They're doing so at a loss.



Wrong. In all the years I've been here, I've never insisted they needed an inexpensive car to survive in the market. In fact, if it was me running the company I would have stayed in the premium end of the market. They were doing fantastic there.

It was Elon who decided he had to move downmarket, because he seems bent on being declared the world's savior or something. Eliminate fossil fuel dependency, something like that. More EVs in more hands. I would have waited another decade maybe.

I have also long acknowledged that Tesla cannot sell the $35K Model 3 profitably. I got a lot of pushback on this despite Elon Himself saying so.

My point of contention has long been that they should never have said they would sell a $35K version, if they knew they could not profitably do so. And my opinion is, they knew a long time ago they couldn't, yet kept saying they could. But as long as they said so, they had an obligation to provide the product they advertised to great fanfare, to the customers that put money down for it.

We can argue whether or not they have reasonably fulfilled that obligation, due to all the upselling they've done and how hard they've made it to actually buy the thing, for what I suspect will be a very short time.



I'll say this, it IS a ridiculous deal. Which is why it likely won't last, I think we agree.



We agree on this as well, pretty sure we always have.



Well, it's this whole thing about not having a car payment right now, and really enjoying that. It's not really in the budget right now, and to be frank, I probably would not buy a Tesla until they get their sh!t sorted out. In any case, $35K buys a hell of a lot of used car, and I'm not one to be afraid of that. When I'm ready, maybe Tesla is in that conversation but I don't really need EV so we'll see.

I don't see a couple hundred thousand Teslas making much difference, so it's hard for me to buy into the "mission". As long as the heavy transport problem goes unsolved (ships, trains, airplanes) and as long as the third world lags behind developmentally, the earth is pretty much f*cked no matter what.

I worked at retail store years back with technology products like Laptops etc. Many companies sell the main products at a loss...for example at Bestbuy, they would often sell computers at a loss..but make ton of profit on accessories, software etc. We can say Tesla makes money on things like AP, especially FSD, etc. I am pretty sure a good chunk of people get AP on Teslas and also a decent amount opt for the FSD. Making AP mandatory was smart...it increased the cost of the cars by $2k but lowered the overall price by $1k comapred to cars last week. How was he able to lower overall cost? By forcing everyone to pay 2k more rather than only some people paying $3k. Sure if you absolutely don't want AP that sucks but, I have a feeling a large number of people love showing off their Lane keeping to friends and using it haha.

As I stated before selling 50,000 cars with 10,000 profit is still not as good as selling 300,0000 cars with $2,000 profit. Things you can profit on AP/FSD, Paint colors, Wheels, accessories.

Also why is Elon so bad if he chooses his company doesn't make such profit for the good sustainable future... Yes that sucks for investors who want to make a quick buck but honestly I think its brilliant. Elon may fail in his company but maybe just maybe one day he will be like Nikola Tesla...he gave so much to the world and ended with nothing...but look where we are today because of him.

 

[mrdibs]

Are you similarly angry when you buy a Camry and the next month Toyota offers a generous factory cash rebate of $3,000 to buyers that you won't get?

If anyone should be miffed it's those of us who bought Performance of dual motor at full rip in 2018 and have watched the prices plummet. It was a bit irritating but I'm over it.

Those of you irate over a couple thousand bucks when this literally happens all the goddamn time with other manufacturer's cars... just, wow.

Are you similarly angry when you buy a Camry and the next month Toyota offers a generous factory cash rebate of $3,000 to buyers that you won't get?

If anyone should be miffed it's those of us who bought Performance of dual motor at full rip in 2018 and have watched the prices plummet. It was a bit irritating but I'm over it.

Those of you irate over a couple thousand bucks when this literally happens all the goddamn time with other manufacturer's cars... just, wow.

I have no loyalty to Toyota either. I always shop and buy the best overall deal. Tesla is not a traditional car company, because they can't be and survive. Brand loyalty is big for them, as is word-of-mouth advertising. They need to be the best with respect to retaining that loyalty or they'll die as soon as there are cars out there that can compete. And believe me, they're coming. So much could be done to fix the pricing problem, but it seems like they're just aiming in the dark. It's kind a mystery to me why an iphone with wheels doesn't have subscription services. That's a sustained revenue model, and I bet a lot of folks that won't shell out 5K for EAP would pay per use for a long trip, a monthly fee, whatever....

 

[mrdibs]

How so? Did you know people paid less for that Toyota Camry than you did? Is there a massive dent in your loyalty for Toyota too?

What about gas, food, electronics, insurance, real-estate, etc? Hows your loyalty with those companies just because someone paid less than you did?

That's ridiculous... honestly.

If you want to wait for other car manufacturers than that's fine. No big deal. But don't go crying to anyone when you find out a dealership in California or where ever is charging less for that car then what you paid.

I never had any loyalty to Toyota. When it comes to cars, I'd say the only thing resembling brand loyalty I have is with my dealer. They carry Ford, Toyota and Dodge. I've bought so many cars there and understand the process so well that I know what they're making on every car they sell me. I know their hold-back and what they expect to sell or auction my trade for. I can also count on them for service, parts and loaners on my schedule, not theirs. Tesla can't have that advantage, so they need an edge. Right now, that's their disruptive innovation. When that fades, and it will, they'll need brand loyalty. They have to do more to get that than Toyota does. It's just the game, and if they don't play to win, they won't.

 

[voip-ninja]

I have no loyalty to Toyota either. I always shop and buy the best overall deal. Tesla is not a traditional car company, because they can't be and survive. Brand loyalty is big for them, as is word-of-mouth advertising. They need to be the best with respect to retaining that loyalty or they'll die as soon as there are cars out there that can compete. And believe me, they're coming. So much could be done to fix the pricing problem, but it seems like they're just aiming in the dark. It's kind a mystery to me why an iphone with wheels doesn't have subscription services. That's a sustained revenue model, and I bet a lot of folks that won't shell out 5K for EAP would pay per use for a long trip, a monthly fee, whatever....

Frankly, to me, MRR is the bane of modern existence and I'm glad that Tesla hasn't gotten ridiculous with it.

You used to buy products and you only paid monthly recurring charge for things that were so big and involved that you couldn't possibly do it yourself.

In the early 2000's you would pay for phone, internet, CATV service and utilities.

Fast forward to 2019;l

• Cable
• Phone(s)
• Internet(s)
• MS Office 365
• Adobe
• Netflix
• Hulu
• Disney
• BMW online subscription services
• Sirius XM radio
• Apple Music
• iCloud storage
• Apple News
• Apple TV+

And the list goes on and F ing on. The percentage of income the typical family is shelling out for software & services is remarkable. Remarkably scary unless you work for one of those companies I suppose.

As far as your comments on brand loyalty, Tesla seems to get pretty good marks, so I guess we'll find out how many people are willing to jump ship over Tesla hurting their resale value.

That competition you insist is about to materialize has been about to materialize for over three years now and still isn't here.

 

[tkline]

Is this going to effect the Model Y at all? Like weren't they planning to have the same base standard range? Also noticed on the MY preorder page they are still listing the long range rear wheel drive as an option

 

[voip-ninja]

I will add two other scenarios where leasing might make sense:

3. Mitigating risk of out-of-warranty repairs for an expensive/exotic vehicle. Serial leasing makes sense if this is the type of vehicle you want because the vehicle is never out of warranty. This was one reason I leased my Model S in 2015.

4. As discussed earlier, if you own a business and drive the car for business purposes, the potential tax deductions can pay off.

If you keep a Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Lexus and have an inordinate amount of repairs it's still questionable if it will average out to cost more than the cost of leasing over a 9 year period of time.

When manufacturers have extremely strong lease incentives (BMW) coupled with very high service costs then leasing gets more attractive.

I still put people who lease because they tax deduct the lease payments as falling into the "can do math" camp.

If a person goes to get a car, and tells the salesperson they can afford a $500 monthly car payment, and the sales person tells them about the wonders of leasing, and the buyer barely has two nickels to rub together but thinks leasing is a smart move, then that buyer is an idiot.

 

[rcuriel]

I also waited 2+ years for my Model 3. I've had it now for 10 months. Hindsight is 20/20, but I wouldn't trade the last 10 months for saving $3K, $5K, or whatever it is buyers are complaining about today. It's an AWESOME car and still a joy to drive everyday. And considering what I would've paid in gas with my previous daily driver and how much I drive the M3 (because it's still fun), I would've paid for the loss/depreciation/whatever in fuel and maintenance costs anyway.

 

[Serge28]

My car price just changed in Tesla account.

Ordered SR + blue paint + autopilot + FSD on 03/11/19 (reservation placed on 03/31/16).

Was listed as $44,500 (MSRP) this whole time. Just got changed to $41,000.

 

[vickh]

I also waited 2+ years for my Model 3. I've had it now for 10 months. Hindsight is 20/20, but I wouldn't trade the last 10 months for saving $3K, $5K, or whatever it is buyers are complaining about today. It's an AWESOME car and still a joy to drive everyday. And considering what I would've paid in gas with my previous daily driver and how much I drive the M3 (because it's still fun), I would've paid for the loss/depreciation/whatever in fuel and maintenance costs anyway.

esp interesting since you're close to the center of the Permian basin gas boom. Do people look at EV's differently there?

 

[Rawlings2019]

Frankly, to me, MRR is the bane of modern existence and I'm glad that Tesla hasn't gotten ridiculous with it.

You used to buy products and you only paid monthly recurring charge for things that were so big and involved that you couldn't possibly do it yourself.

In the early 2000's you would pay for phone, internet, CATV service and utilities.

Fast forward to 2019;l

• Cable
• Phone(s)
• Internet(s)
• MS Office 365
• Adobe
• Netflix
• Hulu
• Disney
• BMW online subscription services
• Sirius XM radio
• Apple Music
• iCloud storage
• Apple News
• Apple TV+

And the list goes on and F ing on. The percentage of income the typical family is shelling out for software & services is remarkable. Remarkably scary unless you work for one of those companies I suppose.

As far as your comments on brand loyalty, Tesla seems to get pretty good marks, so I guess we'll find out how many people are willing to jump ship over Tesla hurting their resale value.

That competition you insist is about to materialize has been about to materialize for over three years now and still isn't here.

Haha this is true. But there's ways around all this. We have just internet bill... we do Sling for TV channels and split it with our parents as it allows 3 streams at once. Internet plus cable would have been $130 just internet and sling for us is $60. Phones..we have family plan with Tmobile 4 phones unlimited everything $150 cost to me and wife $75. We do Netflix .. we got rid of Spotify cause Youtube Premium is 12.99 and it includes all music we ever need and no ads watching youtube on our TVs. For everything else theres KODI haha The internet has made so many things cheaper and to be honest those who pay for Cable and all these other things is just a convenience you can get eveything online for cheaper and through legitimate sources..well Kodi perhaps not. I think Tesla could benefit from charging subscription for FSD etc cause for some people they may not use it all year you know?

 

[MXWing]

You should know by now, but since you asked it's because Tesla is by orders of magnitude the most interesting automotive story of our time. Anyone with any interest at all in the automotive industry should find them compelling, no matter how you feel about them.

It's way more fun to drive one than to discuss in my opinion. Have you driven a 3?

Well, it's this whole thing about not having a car payment right now, and really enjoying that. It's not really in the budget right now, and to be frank, I probably would not buy a Tesla until they get their sh!t sorted out. In any case, $35K buys a hell of a lot of used car, and I'm not one to be afraid of that. When I'm ready, maybe Tesla is in that conversation but I don't really need EV so we'll see.

I don't see a couple hundred thousand Teslas making much difference, so it's hard for me to buy into the "mission". As long as the heavy transport problem goes unsolved (ships, trains, airplanes) and as long as the third world lags behind developmentally, the earth is pretty much f*cked no matter what.

So the Model Y is like the version 2 of the Model 3. People may disagree but I don't care because I am right and they are wrong.

It's going to have a power lift-gate and beat the Model 3 harder than the Model 3 beats up a 3 series. Tesla can sell for any price and eat up anything on the market or coming to the market.

Thats why the Model 3 is a great deal and currently on fire sale in my opinion. $35K.. plus $3,750, plus the other local incentives.

No one NEEDS an EV, until they own one.

I care about the mission.... but the mission is not my top priority. My resources are limited and I really have to put them towards the needs of my family and my own enjoyment first. I'm a pragmatist at heart. The fact that Tesla's happen to be better for the environment is a bonus.

I'd love to see the $35K used car contender you would have in mind.

 

[vickh]

My car price just changed in Tesla account.

Ordered SR + blue paint + autopilot + FSD on 03/11/19 (reservation placed on 03/31/16).

Was listed as $44,500 (MSRP) this whole time. Just got changed to $41,000.

Did you call in or were just options decreased. I will have to call to downgrade my SR+

 

[Rawlings2019]

My car price just changed in Tesla account.

Ordered SR + blue paint + autopilot + FSD on 03/11/19 (reservation placed on 03/31/16).

Was listed as $44,500 (MSRP) this whole time. Just got changed to $41,000.

I would call to make sure you are getting all of the same features...if you just saved that money and get same car...that's amazing haha

 

[Cnasty]

Looks like I'm going to downgrade my SR+ and get that sweet cash back. I only charge to 90% so I won't even notice the decrease if I charge to 98%. The only way I stay with the SR+ is if they make the 0-60 for the SR 5.6 secs.

Did you call today or just waiting to hear more info on how this works?

 

[mrdibs]

Frankly, to me, MRR is the bane of modern existence and I'm glad that Tesla hasn't gotten ridiculous with it.

You used to buy products and you only paid monthly recurring charge for things that were so big and involved that you couldn't possibly do it yourself.

In the early 2000's you would pay for phone, internet, CATV service and utilities.

Fast forward to 2019;l

• Cable
• Phone(s)
• Internet(s)
• MS Office 365
• Adobe
• Netflix
• Hulu
• Disney
• BMW online subscription services
• Sirius XM radio
• Apple Music
• iCloud storage
• Apple News
• Apple TV+

And the list goes on and F ing on. The percentage of income the typical family is shelling out for software & services is remarkable. Remarkably scary unless you work for one of those companies I suppose.

As far as your comments on brand loyalty, Tesla seems to get pretty good marks, so I guess we'll find out how many people are willing to jump ship over Tesla hurting their resale value.

That competition you insist is about to materialize has been about to materialize for over three years now and still isn't here.

I don't disagree with you on MRR - it is getting ridiculous. But something like EAP will need constant and recurring investment to become truly safe and reliable. Counting on cash from car sales to fund it isn't really sustainable. A subscription model makes a ton of sense there.
As far as competition, the Model 3 is actually making a dent in market share and it's been noticed. Ford has essentially killed their ICE lineup of sedans to focus on EV, and it seems the others are shelling out big bucks to enter that market. Read some of their shareholder reports. It's not a side project anymore. They're shifting major amounts of capital. Tesla massively disrupted the market. It's in the middle of an epic shift. And all without a massive government carbon tax! Imagine that, capitalism out-maneuvering politicians. Who'd have thought that possible? (Answer: Every capitalist that ever lived, including this guy)

 

[Az_Rael]

As far as your comments on brand loyalty, Tesla seems to get pretty good marks, so I guess we'll find out how many people are willing to jump ship over Tesla hurting their resale value.

I think the constant price changes and poor messaging is all a symptom of what is going to kill Tesla in the end: poor customer service.

In my neck of California, dealing with service has been comically bad. It took FIVE visits (3 mobile, 2 SC) to install one missing decal on our S. And that was just one of many very poor service interactions we have had over the years at the two service centers near us.

The buying experience was poor for all three cars we bought from them, with the 3 being the best only because we knew where they would trip up and caught all the mistakes early.

There is only so much of that sort of B.S. you will put up with before you start to think "maybe that Audi would be a better overall experience." I know my husband was so frustrated after the ridiculous decal incident that played out over several months he was actually ready to sell the car if they couldn't manage that one simple task. Granted, that came after a long string of terrible service interactions since he bought the car but I figure one more bad one and he really will be done with Tesla. And he was a huge fan, following them since the Roadster - owning an S was a dream come true.

It is only a matter of time before that stuff catches up with them and more people get soured on the brand.

 

[voip-ninja]

I think the constant price changes and poor messaging is all a symptom of what is going to kill Tesla in the end: poor customer service.

In my neck of California, dealing with service has been comically bad. It took FIVE visits (3 mobile, 2 SC) to install one missing decal on our S. And that was just one of many very poor service interactions we have had over the years at the two service centers near us.

The buying experience was poor for all three cars we bought from them, with the 3 being the best only because we knew where they would trip up and caught all the mistakes early.

There is only so much of that sort of B.S. you will put up with before you start to think "maybe that Audi would be a better overall experience." I know my husband was so frustrated after the ridiculous decal incident that played out over several months he was actually ready to sell the car if they couldn't manage that one simple task. Granted, that came after a long string of terrible service interactions since he bought the car but I figure one more bad one and he really will be done with Tesla. And he was a huge fan, following them since the Roadster - owning an S was a dream come true.

It is only a matter of time before that stuff catches up with them and more people get soured on the brand.

Maybe, maybe not. I have had more than my share of bad service experiences and I still actually have a couple of issues with my car that remain unresolved.

I think, man, that new <$premiumsportssedanname> sure looks suh-weet and that company knows how to deliver a great service experience! Then I drive it and find out that it's a piece of crap compared to an EV.

The only real competition Tesla has today is themselves through things you mentioned. We'll see what happens to them if/when Volvo and others actually get a product on the market that people can actually drive and purchase without waiting another 1-2 years.