TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

More powerful motors?

Discussion in 'Model S: Ordering, Production, Delivery' started by Silverbird, Jul 18, 2015.

  1. Silverbird

    Silverbird Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2014
    Messages:
    68
    Location:
    Hong Kong, China
    In the design studio, the P85D has a set of more powerful motors with a total output of 762 hp. Is it a new set of motor? They didn't mention about any change at the press conference!
     
  2. No2DinosaurFuel

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2015
    Messages:
    780
    Location:
    San Diego, California
    I doubt it. I think it is a software upgrade and maybe thr contactor fusr upgrade as some has mentioned here.

    I think tesla just got a lot of data point from all those insane mode launches and they figured it was not damaging the drive unit or overheating the motor. So they unlocked the driver unit by driving more current through it. They just replaced the fuse to allow for higher current. The requirement of the 90KWh battery is to make more money for tesla as well as add a buffer to ensure the voltage does not drop during the power level draw caused by thr high acceleration.

    IMO more money for tesla for the few who have the itch for .3 second faster acceleration.
     
  3. ArtInCT

    ArtInCT Always Learning

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2014
    Messages:
    1,607
    Location:
    Southern Connecticut
    I noticed the jump in HP rating as well post 7/17 announcement. I have been lead to understand that some if not all of the Tesla electric motors can generate a variable rate of horsepower and torque as a function of the amperage that is presented to them. Again from what I have read, there is a direct correlation between the main drive battery pack output and the resultant amperage on the downstream side of the DC to AC Inverter.

    Now this all said... (unverified)... this leads us to the assumption that many of the electric motors are more capable of performance and are amperage limited. At what amperage do the motors become brittle is unclear. Also at what amperage are the AC to DC inverters at maximum is unclear. Lastly, a battery pack that can now output 20% more amperage due to new contactors and fuses will probably create more heat at the extreme end of the output range... so is the battery environmental system also variable? Again unclear.
     
  4. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2012
    Messages:
    6,890
    Location:
    Drammen, Norway
    The motor must have some maximum output, likely limited by thermal factors (i.e. overheating and possibly components starting to melt?).

    In a stationary application you could hook up the motor to an external massive AC source. I'm sure Tesla have done this and know the maximum peak power and continuous power of the motor.

    But we have to think of the drive train as a whole: battery-inverter-motor when we try to understand car performance.
     
  5. Silverbird

    Silverbird Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2014
    Messages:
    68
    Location:
    Hong Kong, China
    The increase should be resulted from the upgrades on the fuse. This should not be show unless u chose the fuse upgrade otherwise the hp should be the same as before.
     
  6. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2012
    Messages:
    6,890
    Location:
    Drammen, Norway
    It's not just a fuse - it's the capacity of the battery+inverter combo.

    Anyway, we know it was the same motor in the 60, 85 and P85. Then came the upgraded (?) rear motor for P85D, likely the same now used in the new RWD 70.

    Since the current P85Ds can be retrofitted to Ludicrous, without changing the motor the question becomes: is the extra 0,1 seconds 0-60 in a P90DL as compared to an upgraded P85DL just due to the bigger and better battery or is the motor upgraded as well?
     
  7. mgboyes

    mgboyes Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2014
    Messages:
    811
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Where's your reference for the 0.1s difference between a P85DL and a P90DL. Different people seem to have been told conflicting things about this.

    The power figures on the motors are generally quite confusing and inconsistent. I think they represent the highest peak output that each motor generates in that particular car, for the current firmware configuration. Given that the lower end cars are clearly software limited in order to create variation across the range, and the higher end ones are limited by the power output of the pack, the result is not that intuitive.
     
  8. No2DinosaurFuel

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2015
    Messages:
    780
    Location:
    San Diego, California
    #8 No2DinosaurFuel, Jul 20, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2015

    Seems pretty intuitive to me:

    Rear wheel drive versions:

    1) S40, S60, S70, S85, P85 all share the same rear motor.

    2) S40, S60, S70, S85 all share the same inverter

    3) The S85 and P85 uses the higher voltage battery, therefore the higher acceleration and HP compared to the S40, S60, S70

    4) P85 has a beefed up inverter, hence the higher speed, acceleration, and HP compared to the S85

    AWD version:

    1) S70D and S85D share the same front and rear motor.

    2) the S70D uses the lower voltage battery hence the slower acceleration compared to the S85D.

    3) The P85D share only the front motor with the S85D and the S70D. The rear motor is the same as the on in the rear wheel drive version only (S40, S60, S70, S85, P85).

    4) The drive unit of the P85D is the same as the P85, the beefed up one. This is why it's less efficient as well as giving it more HP. One can theoretically say the P85D with the front motor off is essentially a P85 with some added weight.

    5) P90D is P85D with either more voltage if tesla added the 5KWh battery in series or allow for more amps if the 5KWh battery is added in parallel. But base on the required fuse upgrade, it looks like they added in parallel and just upped the amps on the drive unit. This would be the FIRST time they would have 2 versions of firmware in the same drive unit. One for the P85D and P90D.

    EDIT ADD:
    6) It looks like the P90D and the P85D will have the same motor configuration.

    So to me, this is pretty clear where all the numbers are coming from.

    I'll make a table explaining all this later.
     
  9. ArtInCT

    ArtInCT Always Learning

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2014
    Messages:
    1,607
    Location:
    Southern Connecticut
    #9 ArtInCT, Jul 20, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2015
    Very nice summary No2DinosaurFuel....

    There has been VERY LITTLE discussion here on the forum regarding the internals of the new RANGE 90 kWh battery pack. Not for lack of asking....
    How did TM do to get from 85 to 90?? New cells, More cells, mix of new and old cells???

    I notice that the choice of RANGE which results in the 90 kWh pack does NOT increase the EPA mileage on the 90 90D or P90D... odd

    PS... you may want to update the above motor data for the 90 and 90D
     
  10. No2DinosaurFuel

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2015
    Messages:
    780
    Location:
    San Diego, California
    I am not sure if tesla can legally say it gives it more range until EPA gets a hold of the car and actually test it. Moreover, it seems like an accessory right now so hence why there is not an upgrade in range.
     
  11. alexrov

    alexrov Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2015
    Messages:
    44
    Location:
    Sunnyvale, CA
    Seems like you contradict yourself here... You're saying the P85D is just a P85 with an extra motor, but you said in your first point that P85 all the way down to S40 have the same rear motor... So then the P85D without the front motor = an S40? Where does the beefed up rear motor come into play?
     
  12. No2DinosaurFuel

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2015
    Messages:
    780
    Location:
    San Diego, California
    It is the inverter that is beefed up. The motor is thr same. Same size same magnets and wiring. To date i think i have seen 3 different motors tesla have created.

    1) big power rear motor for all the RWD model and the p85D and the p90D.

    2) low speed optimized rear motor for the awd model that are NOT p85d or p90d.

    3) hgh speed optimized front motor for all the awd model.

    The only unknown is maybe the p85d had the low speed optimized motor also in the front to allow it to get a super fast acceleration at the price of highway range. Hence why you see 253 EPA miles on the p85d compared to the 85d's 270 EPA miles range. But i cannot confirm.
     
  13. alexrov

    alexrov Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2015
    Messages:
    44
    Location:
    Sunnyvale, CA
    Ah okay. Thanks for clearing that up. I had thought that the D-variant of each model simply had a duplicate version of the rear motor installed in the front. In hindsight, that doesn't make sense. :tongue:
     
  14. Silverbird

    Silverbird Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2014
    Messages:
    68
    Location:
    Hong Kong, China
    My point is that, if u don't select the 90kw and ludicrous speed option, your power output as mentioned in the design studio shows a higher powered motors.
     

Share This Page