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Most of us are underestimating the importance of the Hepa Air Filtration System

Discussion in 'Model X: Ordering, Production, Delivery' started by MitchJi, Dec 12, 2015.

  1. MitchJi

    MitchJi Active Member

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    #1 MitchJi, Dec 12, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
    When I started compiling the information in this post I believed that the Hepa Air Filtration System (HAFS) is more important than most of you knew. After a few minutes of glancing at the results of my searches I realized that I had also underestimated it's importance. My original plan was to wait for the M3, and hope that we could buy it with the HAFS. Now I am planning to buy a used MS (for safety) and to add a DIY HAFS.

    When I watched the MX Launch video, I thought that Elon didn't do a good job of explaining the importance of the Hepa Air Filtration System on the MX, and that that was probably because he doesn't fully understand the benefits of it himself. I think that it should be a standard no cost option on the MX (like seat belts), and all of their present and future cars. I believe that if (or hopefully when) he understands the benefits that those things will happen.

    A little better explanation of the importance of the Hepa Air Filtration System:
    On the (attached) slide from Elon's NX Launch Presentation, in Los Angeles the life expectancy is reduced by eight month's due to poor air quality. That implies that the main benefit of the Filtration System, for residents of LA, would be increased life expectancy. That also implies that people will be equally healthy, but on average live eight month's less. That is not true. I think that most of you will be surprised if you look at the excerpts and links below. Also look at either the screen shots of the first two pages of the attached pdf (PM_Health_Studies_Update_1014.pdf), or the actual pdf if you prefer.

    Is it more important to you that you or your loved ones live a year or so longer, or is it more important to avoid cancer or alzheimer's (just two examples documented below)? Or to endure years of less than optimal health?
    LifeExpectencyReductionAirQuality.jpg
    It is a little bit hard for me to stop pasting more excellent excerpts, because if you just quickly glance at the results from the google links below there are a lot of alarming quotes and studies.

    The following excerpt demonstrates the potential long-term effects of a temporary exposure (i.e. riding in a car).
    NRDC: Our Children At Risk
    I used Los Angeles for many of the examples because I think that the main source of polluted air in LA is from cars, and that the worst exposure would be while driving, which would be good for demonstrating the potential benefits of the system. But unfortunately, the earth is so polluted that the harmful impacts of polluted air are not restricted to a few urban hotspots.
    Quoted from the attached pdf (AirQualityInRuralAreas.pdf):
    Air pollution from China undermining gains in California, Western states
    NRDC: Our Children At Risk
    Air pollution and detrimental effects on children’s brain. The need for a multidisciplinary approach to the issue complexity and challenges
    Adobe ReaderScreenSnapz001.jpg
    Adobe ReaderScreenSnapz002.jpg
    I believe most of you will be surprised if you run the following searches and glance at the results.
    Google - los angeles air quality health effects

    Google - los angeles air quality health effects cancer

    Google - los angeles air quality health effects alzheimer

    View attachment AirQualityInRuralAreas.pdf

    View attachment PM_Health_Studies_Update_1014.pdf
     
  2. commasign

    commasign Active Member

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    +1 from bringing up the real health hazards of air pollution. And that's the main reason I'll spring for the $4500 premium package. But this thread might be better for one of the other areas of this forum (maybe the Energy, Environment, and Policy subforum?). I've also posted links to recent research (collated from the California Air Resources Board) for our local EV association Facebook page:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=%23airpollution+site:facebook.com/sacev&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&biw=1280&bih=675&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjSsZihqtfJAhWJLmMKHaViBEQQ_AUIBigA&dpr=2
     
  3. Fallenone

    Fallenone Active Member

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    Air quality is very important to our health of course, but don't count on the MX's HEPA to help you a lot on it. The classic formulation of health risk is, Risk = Exposure * Toxicity. I won't go into the details about the different toxicity of the air in different environments (your home, your workplace, your car, the streets, etc.). But just think about how many hours are you going to spend in the car everyday. It's not that many compared to the time you spend in your home and workplace. Sure the HEPA is a good to have, but the original contribution of air quality inside your car is not that important compared to other places to start with.
     
  4. MitchJi

    MitchJi Active Member

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    I put it here because:
    1. Quite a few people are opting not to "spring for the $4500 premium package", and I think when they make that decision they should be aware of the consequences.

    2. I believe that when Tesla has a better understanding of this issue they will either drastically reduce the price, or include it in the base price. When that happens I think it's better if their customers appreciate the benefits.
     
  5. MrAustraliaTax

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    These are utterly spurious conclusions. Great for selling HEPA filtration based on fear and FUD, though.

    If life expectancy in (eg) LA is reduced by 8 months compared to elsewhere because of air pollution then HEPA filtration in your car will not make you live significantly longer or better. Not unless you live in your car and never open the windows or doors and always have the HEPA filtration on.

    Otherwise, assuming the air in your HEPA car returns your life expectancy to the mean, and you spend 1 hour every day of your life in your car then at most you will get 1/24th of the risk reduction. That's 3 weeks. And that's ignoring all that evil air that immediately diffuses into the car whenever you open a door or window.

    If you really want to live longer....move cities. That's what the data actually supports.
     
  6. rdalcanto

    rdalcanto Member

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    I do think it will help drive sales in China, where people walk around with masks covering their faces.
     
  7. MitchJi

    MitchJi Active Member

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    Hi,

    That make sense. But just because it makes sense doesn't mean its correct. The air quality on roads is substantially worse than in most peoples homes and workplaces, and same link, different excerpts:
    If you are willing to roll the dice with your own health do you want to do that with your children's health?:
     
  8. eye.surgeon

    eye.surgeon Member

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    Agreed.

    And according to the UN, the air in LA isn't particularly polluted. In fact there isn't a single US city on the UN poorest air quality list. India and China have air pollution issues that make LA's air look squeaky clean.
     
  9. vandacca

    vandacca Active Member

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    I may be wrong, but it was my understanding that a HEPA filter does not filter out ozone. That's one of the pollutants mentioned in the studies.
     
  10. Fallenone

    Fallenone Active Member

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    Air on the road != air in the car. Air on the road is much worse than air in the car. The HEPA on MX only affects air in the car, has nothing to offer to anywhere else people are.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Regarding to the excerpt on children health, do you see anything there has anything to do with air quality in the car? I cannot stress enough the differences between air quality's impact to human health and air quality in the car to human heatlh.

    Speaking as a phd in Environmental Health Sciences specialized in air pollution related health risks, I can assure you the air quality in cars is at the bottom of the list of concerns when you are worrying about air pollution, unless for those professional drivers.

     
  11. MrBoylan

    MrBoylan Member

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    Drops mic. Walks off stage.



    (I'm still getting the HEPA filter)
     
  12. Spidy

    Spidy Member

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    #12 Spidy, Dec 12, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
    I think the big question is how much better the Model X actually is compared to the Model S, competitors or rather inexpensive air filter upgrades from if you buy it from a different filter manufacturer, because for most cars you actually have several options.

    I mean I still don't understand these x-times numbers.

    2015-12-13 02.06.48 am.png

    Here is a filter that claims to remove 99% of the ozon: micronAir combi filters- Freudenberg Filtration

    Here is one that Traps almost 100% of allergens: Innenraumfilter FreciousPlus von MANN-FILTER


    So how can something be 500x Better than something that's already close to 100% efficient? Sure that 100% numbers is probably a bit generous but when I look at air filters I see number like 80% or 90% all the time. Even there how would you even be 100x better?

    Oh and I would really like to know how high the risk is to catch a virus from outside air getting into the car is. I mean it seems like you would need some sick person to cough in front of your car while you stand at a crosswalk.
     
  13. Fallenone

    Fallenone Active Member

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    At those levels, we are talking about the difference between 99% and 99.99% so you definitely can have a few hundred times of differences. Will it really matter if its 99% or 99.99% when it comes to the actual health risk? It's up to you to decide.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Don't get me wrong, the HEPA is useful in its own ways, especially if you're allergic to pollen and other fine/ultrafine particulates in the air. I'm just saying OP is blowing this HEPA way out of proportion of its actual usefulness and using inappropriate sources (air quality in general is super important to our health, but that doesn't mean MX HEPA can help a lot).

    On the other hand, I think the x months of years of life lost in the original presentation by Elon are pretty good estimates, maybe even a bit underestimated if you show them to the some scientists.

     
  14. MrAustraliaTax

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    Relative risk is always quoted when actual risk wouldn't make a compelling argument.

    [99% -> 99.99% effective]
    "Our product is 0.99% better than our competition."
    vs
    "Our product is 100 times better than our competition."

    Which sells more product?

    Says it all in a nutshell (no criticism intended). Having choices is good for consumers.
     
  15. dhrivnak

    dhrivnak Active Member

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    Since I need to get out of my car to walk to the office/home/theater/park I will then spend hours in with NO HEPA filters I see zero value of one in the car. Yes in an operating room but since I spend less than 5% of my life in my car and most of that time I have the windows open or the roof off, a HEPA filter is just crazy.
     
  16. dhanson865

    dhanson865 Active Member

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    #16 dhanson865, Dec 12, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
    You must have no allergies or don't mind paying for your allergy medications.

    You live in TN and don't see the value of not being exposed to Pollen?

    Worst U.S. cities for allergy sufferers - CNN.com

    1. Jackson, Mississippi
    2. Knoxville, Tennessee
    3. Chattanooga, Tennessee
    4. McAllen, Texas
    5. Louisville, Kentucky
    6. Wichita, Kansas
    7. Dayton, Ohio
    8. Memphis, Tennessee

    The 100 Most Challenging Places to Live with Allergies


    The five most challenging cities to live in with springtime allergies this year (spring 2015) are:


    1. Jackson, Mississippi
    2. Louisville, Kentucky
    3. Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
    4. Memphis, Tennessee
    5. Knoxville, Tennessee


    If my drive to work is 30 minutes and my walk from car to building is 1 minute I'm pretty sure I want cabin air filters to remove the pollen 30 times more than I want to wear a dust mask walking from the car to work (which I don't do).

    Not to mention that at work and home I only have a few plants to worry about but in between there are thousands if not millions I have to pass every day.

    My car is in a garage at home so I don't face the pollen there, on the road I have the cabin air filter. If I could get a better filter for my two best cars I'd do it in a heartbeat.

    I'd like to know where I can go to have someone retrofit a bigger/better filter in my existing cars. If I can't do that I sure want Tesla to offer it on every car they sell so I have the ability to upgrade cheaper than a Model X with all the options.
     
  17. EarlyAdopter

    EarlyAdopter Active Member

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    I don't have stinky trucks exhausting diesel particulate matter and fumes all over the place at home or in my office.

    HEPA filtration plus two layers of activated carbon please.
     
  18. SarahsDad

    SarahsDad Member

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    The HEPA filter stuff is a direct play to the China market, where wearing masks in public is commonplace due to such terrible air pollution.

    Still-air-traps-smog-in-China’s-capital-triggering-‘red-alert’.jpg
     
  19. dhanson865

    dhanson865 Active Member

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    Maybe, but here in the US, my wife thought that was the best part of the X reveal live stream and she was just thinking about pollen.
     
  20. PaulusdB

    PaulusdB Mayor Gnomus Vintage Limb

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    When the Model S cabin air filter didn't yet contain active carbon, I swapped it out for an after market filter with active carbon.
    The difference was noticeable and for € 15,00 I considered it a bargain.
    Curious what the super-duper HEPA filter can do.
     

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