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Mayhemm
Model S P85+ "Lola"
Very interesting that its own "Car of the Year" was not even included in this competition... I find that omission curious, especially since it was not explained in any way. Perhaps they were afraid it would win again and they did not wish to bestow yet another accolade on an electric vehicle? No Model S, yet we get a lovely Ford Focus and a Mercedes station wagon. Okaaay...
I'll admit I only skimmed the video, but I presumed the test would have involved at least 4 laps and they were being somewhat polite to exclude it due to the limiter. Just a guess.
CapitalistOppressor
Active Member
Yes, there is no way they are going to include it as long as it is becoming heat limited the way it does.
MartinAustin
Active Member
Hmmm. By the wording mentioned in the video, the Tesla Model S Performance Plus should qualify to be included. "...all the new or upgraded high-performance cars launched in the 12 months prior to the test."
http://wot.motortrend.com/tesla-mod...-plus-package-with-sportier-tires-363395.html
And, replacing the 252hp Ford Focus (which no-one expects to win) with a 416hp Tesla Model S would be much more within the power band of the other cars. A significant portion of the Ford Focus review time was taken up mentioning how little power it had.
I would not expect the Tesla Model S to win this competition, but IMO it should still be in the test group. And as we see from that video, they did test it.
The BMW M6 only got 2 laps around the track 'cos it was so unpleasant to drive. The Ford Focus only made it around two laps because of brake fluid. Perhaps the Tesla would only get 2 laps due to motor overheating, who knows.
I can only come to one conclusion, the entire test is sponsored by (i.e., paid for... "doesn't exist without") Mobil 1, of which the Tesla Model S doesn't use one drop. At the end of the day, editorial pieces like this are still ads. By seeing coverage of these cool cars, the manufacturers (and by implication, maintenance companies & suppliers) are basically getting advertising... their revenues will increase by virtue of this advertising. However, every second of screen-time that the Tesla Model S gets, no matter where it falls in the show, is wasted money as far as Mobil 1 is concerned. It may as well be a paid intermission for Valvoline - that's how much it'd contribute to Mobil 1's revenues.
It shouldn't come as a surprise that the Tesla Model S faced some sort of prejudicial bias which resulted in a rejection from the show, and the 1/2-a-second shot is just an editorial oversight.
http://wot.motortrend.com/tesla-mod...-plus-package-with-sportier-tires-363395.html
And, replacing the 252hp Ford Focus (which no-one expects to win) with a 416hp Tesla Model S would be much more within the power band of the other cars. A significant portion of the Ford Focus review time was taken up mentioning how little power it had.
I would not expect the Tesla Model S to win this competition, but IMO it should still be in the test group. And as we see from that video, they did test it.
The BMW M6 only got 2 laps around the track 'cos it was so unpleasant to drive. The Ford Focus only made it around two laps because of brake fluid. Perhaps the Tesla would only get 2 laps due to motor overheating, who knows.
I can only come to one conclusion, the entire test is sponsored by (i.e., paid for... "doesn't exist without") Mobil 1, of which the Tesla Model S doesn't use one drop. At the end of the day, editorial pieces like this are still ads. By seeing coverage of these cool cars, the manufacturers (and by implication, maintenance companies & suppliers) are basically getting advertising... their revenues will increase by virtue of this advertising. However, every second of screen-time that the Tesla Model S gets, no matter where it falls in the show, is wasted money as far as Mobil 1 is concerned. It may as well be a paid intermission for Valvoline - that's how much it'd contribute to Mobil 1's revenues.
It shouldn't come as a surprise that the Tesla Model S faced some sort of prejudicial bias which resulted in a rejection from the show, and the 1/2-a-second shot is just an editorial oversight.
Editing is a constant struggle to fit it all in. Narration, music, story, pictures all have to work in concert. I say, if the Model S was even brought to a oil sponsored event and then 1/2 second of the Tesla is then put it the video (if it's the only video) then it was planned in one way or another.
I'd like to think that the MT editors fought to put the MS in the testing and video and was denied. The 1/2 second was all they could slip in.
Volker.Berlin
Member
WOW, how did you catch THAT! I'm impressed. I had quite some difficulty spotting the Model S even when knowing it was there...
CapitalistOppressor
Active Member
My understanding is that the Model S is not able to complete a single lap at Laguna Seca without going into thermal protection mode. You can baby it and still get a decent time, but you can't flog it. I prefer Brianman's hypothesis that they are just being nice to Tesla by not highlighting the track limitations of the Model S.
FWIW, when (I think it was...) Motor Trend commented that they wanted a "secret magic handshake" way to turn off the limiting in one of their articles, I did give them direct feedback that this was the wrong approach. More specifically, that they should push Tesla to make an owner available setting -- otherwise any subsequent review using that method would be (at best) inaccurate reporting and misrepresentation of the vehicle offering that was available to customers.
I felt somewhat similarly about the "we tested Elon's special vehicle" notation in a previous review, until it was made available to customers in Plus form.
I felt somewhat similarly about the "we tested Elon's special vehicle" notation in a previous review, until it was made available to customers in Plus form.
CapitalistOppressor
Active Member
In their long term Model S updates they specifically mentioned their thermal issues with the Model S on track day. I'm sure they would have loved to include the Model S in this competition, but its just not capable of performing at its best level under track conditions, and the driving compromises that you have to make to get it around a full lap are IMHO disqualifying from a "Best Drivers Car" competition.
I say this as someone who specifically argued that the Model S was comparable to cars like the BMW M5 here -
Model S Performance vs BMW M5
Now that we have better data than we had at the time of that thread, I feel it is quite comparable to some of the best cars in the world under real world conditions like streets and highways. In a competitive environment it does ok at drag strips, and is pretty awesome at drifting.
But on a race track like Laguna Seca you rapidly hit the thermal limiter, and this competition is clearly about how cars perform under those types of extreme conditions. And in the case of the Model S, the answer is "not so well".
None of this detracts from how awesome the car is, or how deserving it is of it's "Car of the Year" awards. Those awards are for how good of a car it is. In day to day use, it kicks the bejesus out of most anything on the road in terms of acceleration and all around fun. And it is an engineering marvel when you look at how incredibly capable it is on such a diversity of performance metrics. It literally is not possible to build a gas powered car as good as the Model S is at so many different things.
But getting around Laguna Seca without thermal problems is not one of those things.
Just to close the loop on where CO's post is headed...
Is the conventional terminology that "best driver's car" means "best driver's car for track usage"? If not, maybe they should be more crisp in their definition. I would expect that 99% of the population never takes a vehicle to the track, so are we considering only 1% of "drivers" are "drivers"?
Is the conventional terminology that "best driver's car" means "best driver's car for track usage"? If not, maybe they should be more crisp in their definition. I would expect that 99% of the population never takes a vehicle to the track, so are we considering only 1% of "drivers" are "drivers"?
MartinAustin
Active Member
Maybe you're right. Maybe Randy Pobst floored it and it went awry on the first lap... it might be considered merciful to not bring this up during the show.
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I agree with your view. I thought similar of one of the magazines that pulled fuses in order to do a burnout (although that is at lease owner repeatable).
I remember someone did ask JB and he did say the actual thermal limits of the car is quite close to how the limiter is set so they don't have any plans to add a special mode that dials down or disables it, but I still think it's likely quite conservative (compared to the Roadster). The Model S one seems to be designed so that you will never hit the edge of overheating no matter what you do, while the Roadster allows you to touch it. Of course the Model S doesn't even have temp gauges so it's impossible to tell.
Mayhemm
Model S P85+ "Lola"
So, let me see if I understand this correctly; Model S is not capable of handling 4 laps around a racetrack without overheating and having to limp home? :scared:
Now, I have never taken a vehicle to the racetrack and probably never will, but I still find it a bit irritating that when I finally get a vehicle that I might want to take to the track, I can't, because it will overheat!
I'd find this to be particularly embarrassing if I had sprung for the plus package. How can you claim to offer a sports car experience if you can't put it on a track?
Clearly this is a well known thing, and most here have already come to accept it, but this is the first I've heard of it. Where can I go to learn more about it?
Now, I have never taken a vehicle to the racetrack and probably never will, but I still find it a bit irritating that when I finally get a vehicle that I might want to take to the track, I can't, because it will overheat!
I'd find this to be particularly embarrassing if I had sprung for the plus package. How can you claim to offer a sports car experience if you can't put it on a track?
Clearly this is a well known thing, and most here have already come to accept it, but this is the first I've heard of it. Where can I go to learn more about it?
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