MOTORTREND : Best drivers car

[brianman]

So, let me see if I understand this correctly; Model S is not capable of handling 4 laps around a racetrack without overheating and having to limp home? :scared:

No. You're misunderstanding.

After [1,12) laps (depending on driving style), the Model S will display the acceleration limiter that looks much like what you get when your battery is low (like 30 rated miles, ballpark). The car will run fine, you just don't have the "oomph" you're accustomed to experience when pressing on the accelerator strongly.

No vehicle dysfunction. No drama. No stranded driver/owner. Nothing to see here, salacious headline seekers from embarrassingly poor publications.

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How can you claim to offer a sports car experience if you can't put it on a track?

They have never claimed a sports car experience for Model S. Some owners wanted them to do so, after an interesting showing at the 2012 Refuel event at Laguna Seca though.

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Clearly this is a well known thing, and most here have already come to accept it, but this is the first I've heard of it. Where can I go to learn more about it?

On TMC it is, but not so much to the general public (or even the automotive media in general AFAIK). Where to go to learn more? Well, TMC is probably one of the better sources I would guess.

 

[Mayhemm]

After [1,12) laps (depending on driving style), the Model S will display the acceleration limiter that looks much like what you get when your battery is low (like 30 rated miles, ballpark). The car will run fine, you just don't have the "oomph" you're accustomed to experience when pressing on the accelerator strongly.

While this is nowhere near as bad as I thought, I would still argue that it is a limitation that shouldn't really exist in a car that wants to be treated like any other car. I can take a Ford Fiesta to the track if I want. It wouldn't make for a very good show, but no limiting would take place.

They have never claimed a sports car experience for Model S.

I beg to differ. While the typical Model S is not a sports car, the very reason for the existence of the performance plus package is to provide a sports car feel.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not out to bad-mouth Model S here. I'm just surprised it has such a limitation. Like if you told me I couldn't leave it at the airport for a week in the winter without permanently damaging the battery pack. Such a limitation should not exist in a "regular" car. No emissions, no compromises.

 

[brianman]

I beg to differ. While the typical Model S is not a sports car, the very reason for the existence of the performance plus package is to provide a sports car feel.

I disagree. Firstly, they didn't provide it to give it a sports car feel. Secondly, even if they did that doesn't explicitly or implicitly mean that Tesla is calling it a sports car.

Example: I put on a baseball cap. That gives me a social and sports feel. That doesn't make me a baseball player nor imply that I'm presenting myself as such.

 

[stopcrazypp]

While this is nowhere near as bad as I thought, I would still argue that it is a limitation that shouldn't really exist in a car that wants to be treated like any other car. I can take a Ford Fiesta to the track if I want. It wouldn't make for a very good show, but no limiting would take place.

Small correction is that the Model S never reaches the point of overheating. The limiter cuts in well before it even gets near that (it cuts in even earlier on the track than for the air cooled Roadster). They could make it less conservative (cut in later and/or cut less power), but it does exist for a good reason (an overheated motor will drastically reduce the lifetime). This applies similarly to the PEM and battery. You will never see the limiter outside the track (unless you run low on range).

About the Fiesta, you would still have less power than the Model S does with the limiter on (160kW/215hp if I remember correctly). Other EVs don't hit this limit because they don't make anywhere near the amount of power to generate enough waste heat (Model S makes more power at half power than they do at full power).

Tesla already made it explicitly clear the Roadster is not a track car and the Model S even less so.

 

[evmile]

Tesla already made it explicitly clear the Roadster is not a track car and the Model S even less so.

Where do they make that clear?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Where do they make that clear?

Perhaps not on their website, but I remember this being a question brought up during the early Roadster days (given the Lotus based roots) and Tesla saying it's not a track car.
http://green.autoblog.com/2007/12/29/would-the-tesla-roadster-be-a-suitable-track-car/

And if even the Roadster is not a track car, it's even less likely for the Model S (which is a large family sedan for the most part, although a very quick one).

 

[Mayhemm]

Example: I put on a baseball cap. That gives me a social and sports feel. That doesn't make me a baseball player nor imply that I'm presenting myself as such.

True, but if you were to also wear cleats and a uniform while carrying around a glove and bat....It still wouldn't make you a baseball player, but it may give an outside observer the impression that you were trying to be one.

 

[stopcrazypp]

There's plenty of cars considered/marketed as track cars that are not really track worthy. Brake fade is common (happened to M6 in this comparo, BRZ in last year's) and brake fluid failure is the most common serious failure. Happened to the Focus ST in this comparo (even the pads and rotors were ruined) and to the $400k Aventador and the GT500 in last year's.
http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/1208_2012_motor_trend_best_drivers_car/viewall.html
The last place car for this year, the new Viper, had even more serious issues (parts falling off).

Limited power is not as bad as this (you can at least still drive and not have to get off the track to wait for your brakes to cool).

 

[Jason S]

So, let me see if I understand this correctly; Model S is not capable of handling 4 laps around a racetrack without overheating and having to limp home? :scared:

Now, I have never taken a vehicle to the racetrack and probably never will, but I still find it a bit irritating that when I finally get a vehicle that I might want to take to the track, I can't, because it will overheat!

I'd find this to be particularly embarrassing if I had sprung for the plus package. How can you claim to offer a sports car experience if you can't put it on a track?

Clearly this is a well known thing, and most here have already come to accept it, but this is the first I've heard of it. Where can I go to learn more about it?

Highlighted the part that is just wrong.

It isn't limping home. It is just not able to go top speed all the way home; you get speed limited... to about 80mph, iirc. Since you get speed limited, you can't track it very well. And by "track it" I mean get good consistent track times. You hafta let it cool down, just like with some other cars the brakes overheat and you need to let those cool down.

 

[Dwdnjck]

Since getting my model S, I just don't find car mags interesting any more. I also don't waste time looking for used Benley Azures on EBay any more either.

 

[mnx]

I'm sure they didn't include it for the reasons mentioned above (power limiting). The Focus ST has a better MT laptime at Laguna Seca than the Model S FWIW!

 

[NoMoDinos]

True, but if you were to also wear cleats and a uniform while carrying around a glove and bat....It still wouldn't make you a baseball player, but it may give an outside observer the impression that you were trying to be one.

Hmmm... this is an old Dave Chapelle bit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K1KHqi9bXc

(NSFW, warning, strong language and possibly offensive!)

 

[stopcrazypp]

I'm sure they didn't include it for the reasons mentioned above (power limiting). The Focus ST has a better MT laptime at Laguna Seca than the Model S FWIW!

For people wondering, the author of this feature, Scott Evans, responded to a comment and pointed to the 1:50.79 time the P85 got in a previous feature:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/oneyear/alternative/1310_2013_tesla_model_s_p85_arrival/
http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/1311_2013_motor_trend_best_drivers_car/viewall.html

The fastest time set (supposedly in a stock Model S) was by Aaron Bailey with a 1:48.917 in the Tesla Employee class in the 2013 Refuel:
http://www.refuelraces.com/sportelectrictt2013.php

 

[brianman]

You will never see the limiter outside the track (unless you run low on range).

I'm pretty sure we don't have anywhere near enough data to make this assertion. If you "use the pep" of a P85 while going into the mountains for skiing, I bet you'll see the limiter then too.

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you get speed limited... to about 80mph, iirc. Since you get speed limited, you can't track it very well.

No you don't. I took it over 100mph with the acceleration limiter on. Straights are delicious.

Verified at both Bremerton and Shelton.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I'm pretty sure we don't have anywhere near enough data to make this assertion. If you "use the pep" of a P85 while going into the mountains for skiing, I bet you'll see the limiter then too.

Like said by someone at another thread, you caught me using hyperbole :tongue:. Yes, there will be some exceedingly rare cases of extremely long periods of high power demand that this might happen, but I don't think you need full power even to go up steep hills. You would have to be driving like on a track (long straights where you can apply full power for acceleration, then having to brake, then more full power for acceleration, rinse and repeat).

 

[GDH]

Since getting my model S, I just don't find car mags interesting any more. I also don't waste time looking for used Benley Azures on EBay any more either.

LMAO

 

[Martini]

Is this sub-8 minute time by the Mercedes evidence that thermal-limiting is not inherent to electric drive but rather a consequence of Tesla's design choices (and therefore can be overcome?)

http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-...1-11701-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0.html?TS=1370868622342

Perhaps those in the overclocking community should get their huge heat-sinks and bottles of liquid nitrogen out and enable some epic lap times :smile:

 

[Mayhemm]

I'm surprised the SLS could make it around the Nürburgring, given its limited range and the high power demands of a race lap.

Perhaps Model S 2.0 will have an option for a beefed-up cooling system.

 

[stopcrazypp]

There's a bunch of things going for the SLS that doesn't go for the Model S (independent of it being electric). It has: all wheel drive (with 4 wheel torque-vectoring), less weight (from a smaller battery pack and being a coupe), better down force at the cost of drag (drag coefficient is 0.36 vs 0.26 of the Model S), active aerodynamics (extendable front splitter), and a higher 155mph top speed (very important for the high speed sections of the Ring; I remember Audi modified their e-tron for a higher top speed just for this reason).

And implementation-wise, the SLS went with four 138kW motors which should help heat dissipation (vs one high power motor like Tesla). They also picked a power optimized chemistry (60kWh from a 1210 lb battery pack, while Tesla gets 85kWh from the same weight).

Yes, Tesla could have designed a larger thermal envelope by sizing the radiators for a track application and designing the front to let the air flow to a larger area, but this would mean no longer having a 0.26 drag coefficient and also a lower EPA range number (which matters a lot more).

The only other option is active aerodynamics (closing most of front off most of the time and opening only during high power demand). But doesn't seem worth it for something that would be rarely used.

 

[MartinAustin]

...still... brings me to wonder that if Tesla put a front motor into the Model S for all-wheel-drive as has been mooted, two motors might be able to handle a few laps before the overheating kills the track performance. And the car would be pretty incredible.