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MsElectric, AR, Kugerrand and Johan discuss TMC moderation
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I joined a conversation is support of MsElectric's argument that I thought you were being dismissive of in #15 with "Nah this isn't true." Not unlike Krugerrand joined to support your point of view. And everyone else on the thread ran for the hills.
In some, granted, overly optimistic way I also thought it might actually make a difference in mutual understanding to point out that I'm not quite alone feeling that way about TMC. No such luck, but hey, AR for effort?
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
I joined a conversation is support of MsElectric's argument that I thought you were being dismissive of in #15 with "Nah this isn't true." Not unlike Krugerrand joined to support your point of view. And everyone else on the thread ran for the hills.
In some, granted, overly optimistic way I also thought it might actually make a difference in mutual understanding to point out that I'm not quite alone feeling that way about TMC. No such luck, but hey, AR for effort?
Well you do get a B+ for narcissistic grandeur from me.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
I agree but I think personally sometimes the censorship on this TMC site is a bit too draconian and not conducive to sharing information as I've seen instances where I felt relevant discussion was suppressed. I wonder if now this post itself will get deleted by a moderator...
.
Really? How many times do people on TMC need to state that with RARE exception, posts are not deleted by a moderator? The ONLY time posts are removed are when a TOS issue has arisen. NEVER for negative feedback.
It galls me that people just toss that statement out there, with absolutely ZERO evidence. But hey, sounds good. And some new person on the board sees that and believes it to be true, when in fact, it is not. It's probably why you believe it - you probably saw another post where someone just tossed it out there and you thought it must be true.
And what censorship? Posts are moved to snippiness for rudeness. But what censorship exactly are you talking about? I know of no instances of censorship.
Are people supportive of Tesla? Um yes. This is, after all, a fan site. Not exactly shocking news there. Are there plenty of threads on this site that are very negative towards Tesla. Yep. Mostly this forum is inhabited by people who have had some measure of success in their lives, are smart & articulate, who love the car/company for valid reasons - and sometimes are unhappy with the car or company and say so.
I actually agree with that part. And I said as much when the site culture was last discussed on the related sub-forum.
The problem on TMC is not post deletion.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
I'm sorry if I was a bit harsh yesterday. The Anxious Ranger is now on my ignore list and I'll keep focus on all things Tesla related from now on. Perhaps I was being a bit too protective of an online community that I value very highly.
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Krugerrand
Meow
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Sure, we can keep chatting, but it seems we pretty much agree on the vital stuff so it's not as fun as when you disagree, right?
Krugerrand
Meow
So I was right, my post actually did get moderated and this is precisely what I was talking about...
Let me provide two other instances of what I consider to be draconian moderation and censorship. Though I am new here the level of moderation (and essentially censorship where posts are shoved into some black hole) I have witnessed here is beyond anything I have seen on any of the Mercedes forums or the actual Tesla Corporate forum where the information posted is peer reviewed and peer moderated with comments by other forum members but hardly anyone is ever silenced.
All the responses to my casual comment is proof that I am not alone in feeling that the level of moderation on the TMC is quite high as this topic seems to have hit a nerve. I can think of two examples that I felt were very unreasonable with draconian moderations that I have not experienced anything similar to this in 15+ years of use of other online car forums.
There was a person on this forum 'PlanB" who I thought was being extremely disrespectful and I might have made a sarcastic remark to something he said that I thought was completely out of line. My comment was civilized and to the point but I somehow got demoted over that comment and later PlanB was actually banned. It just seemed patronizing that a moderator or someone can demote my forum alias as apparently some way of teaching me a lesson for essentially defending myself with a comment towards someone who is so awful that they ended up being banned from the forum. Any other forum I am on if someone makes an unreasonable comment towards you, you respond and as long as it is not being verbally abusive your voice is not silenced.
The other example I recall of what I consider to be draconian censorship is on the Tesla for sale section someone listed a car a price that several forum members thought was much higher than the going market price and more than what you can buy an inventory vehicle. In any other forums, such information presented by other forum members would have been appreciated as it helps the original seller set a reasonable price and it helps someone looking to purchase a vehicle know about the actual market prices. After all the whole point o f a public forum is to share information and learn from others and if someone disagrees with anything they can present facts as to why they disagree. But in this case the comments other forum members took the time to write were all removed and I personally consider that to be a level of censorship that I have not witnessed in any other car forum.
Finally in closing the TMC forum is quite useful and I appreciate all the work that goes into maintaining it. However the heavy moderation I have seen makes it seem like this is the Muriburiland of Tesla information where there is a very low tolerance for dissent or other opinions. If anyone has seen Lillyhammer on Netflix you know what I'm talking about. On an open public forum I feel the more discussion and discourse that is allowed the better it is as long as forum members are not being verbally abusive. This is the approach I have witnessed with the Tesla Corporate forum and both Mercedes forums I frequent and all those other forums are at least as useful with just as good information as the TMC forum.
It seems there is a propensity here to moderate and censor what other forum members take time to share that is more than necessary. There is really no difference between a post that is deleted or one that is "moved" as they are essentially the same thing. None of the other car Tesla or Mercedes forums have such a high occurrence of posts being censored but somehow they all remain at least as useful and information as the TMC forum.
I appreciate the opportunity to provide this feedback and I hope it is received as constructive feedback and I am unlikely alone in feeling this way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeDRxUpcqyg
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Your post was not deleted. Fifty off-topic posts were moved to a dedicated thread. Please explain how that is draconian or censorship.
I agree but I think personally sometimes the censorship on this TMC site is a bit too draconian and not conducive to sharing information as I've seen instances where I felt relevant discussion was suppressed. I wonder if now this post itself will get deleted by a moderator...
First you say 'deleted' and then you change your complaint to 'moderated' since it didn't get deleted as you feared.
Yes. Please explain how having 50 posts about 'draconian censorship' moved to their own thread with a pointer showing where they went is censorship. Also explain how posts being deleted with no reference to them ever existing is remotely the same thing as having off topic posts moved and a note showing exactly where they went is the same thing.
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I'd agree that this forum is different from most others I've been on, and that the moderators are more active.
They aren't deleting posts, however. Instead, they group posts that are on similar topics aggressively, and pull off topic posts out - posts that I didn't feel were particularly snippy got moved to snippiness because they were connected to posts that others were being more aggressive in.
The result is that the content in a thread tends to pretty consistently reflect the title and threads mostly stay on topic. In other forums I'm involved with, threads go all over the place and you quickly find that the subject of discussion on page 2 has nothing at all to do with the original post.
That mostly doesn't happen here (except for today's thread about a poor unplugged Volt that has somehow morphed into a long discussion about the Volt power button recall. Edit: the thread I was talking about got split into two a couple hours after I wrote this.)
I'm still of mixed minds about which approach is better but from what I've seen TMC has generally been fair and open about what they do, with no moderator bias towards anything in particular that I've seen.
Walter
They aren't deleting posts, however. Instead, they group posts that are on similar topics aggressively, and pull off topic posts out - posts that I didn't feel were particularly snippy got moved to snippiness because they were connected to posts that others were being more aggressive in.
The result is that the content in a thread tends to pretty consistently reflect the title and threads mostly stay on topic. In other forums I'm involved with, threads go all over the place and you quickly find that the subject of discussion on page 2 has nothing at all to do with the original post.
That mostly doesn't happen here (except for today's thread about a poor unplugged Volt that has somehow morphed into a long discussion about the Volt power button recall. Edit: the thread I was talking about got split into two a couple hours after I wrote this.)
I'm still of mixed minds about which approach is better but from what I've seen TMC has generally been fair and open about what they do, with no moderator bias towards anything in particular that I've seen.
Walter
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I appreciate your response and first let me say that I do appreciate all your efforts and the rest of the TMC team to allow this forum to share and discuss Tesla. We are both on the same side here and I am huge proponent of Tesla. Please don't take any of this discussion personally as I'm just sharing my opinion of what I believe to be excessive censorship of forum posts that forum members take the time to share.
Do you have any feedback regarding the two examples I offered and do you feel the action taken in each of those situations was reasonable? This is the crux of the matter and why I feel in each case the moderation was heavy handed.
As I've said earlier I have not seen this level of moderation/censorship on any other online forum but yet they all function quite well with lots of information and viewpoints being shared by all.
What was done to my post (again) was certainly censorship as along with the one sentence remark I made the rest of my following comment that was very much a part of the discussion was essentially censored when my post was "moved." When relevant discussion is "moved" to some part of the Web site away from where that discussion was presented, it is essentially the same as if the information was deleted as was censored.
I do notice though that especially on the WSJ discussion forums that there is quite a bit of hatred towards Tesla that is disproportional. You'd see an article and literally dozens of hateful posts against Tesla. Like I said I think the articles are picked up by some ignorant hate rag and it sends all the angry people over who seem to want to blame Tesla for their political issues.
I sometimes engage with them just to add some balance...
I can tell you are reasonable person as you see both sides of the issue.
When several forum members posts (not just mine) about the price of a Tesla offered for sale was removed so no other forum members could see that information I felt that was an example of excessive censorship as the moderation in that case prevented the forum subscribers from benefiting from the knowledge shared by others. If you post a car for sale on an online forum that is designed for the sole purpose of other forum members commenting it should not be surprising when forum members share feedback about what was posted.
When my post along with other forum members' posts were removed in the above instance I absolutely consider that to be heavy handed moderation (unlike anything I have seen on any other similar forum) and if that's the way it is going to be where certain information deemed useful to share by other forum members can be deleted/censored/removed/moved (to me they are all the same thing) then so be it but I am just pointing out what I have noticed.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
So first let me say, I resigned from moderating at the end of February. That may give me a unique perspective, dunno.
I can understand completely the feeling of 'hey!! where did my post go??'. (I'm still slightly bothered after more than a year that I am shown as starting the 'BEV Dogma' thread. Because I didn't. Only saying that to say 'I get it'.)
But this forum is exploding. When I was still moderating, we'd have days where there would be constant new threads started on the same topic. "Hey guys! LOOK!! A video of [whatever]". It's pretty insane at times. Trying to keep order here is like trying to herd cats that have been on a bender imbibing meth-infused catnip. Some people think we don't do enough moderation (yep, you should see all the reports). Others, like you, would prefer we never moderate anything. And it gets pretty rough behind the scenes at times - I am not kidding when I say I carry TWO permanent restraining orders against a former TMC member who was miffed over a TOS violation and decided to target me. (On the other hand, I did get to know all the local law enforcement and some nice lawyers and a couple of really nice judges - always a silver lining.)
If I were to just hijack a thread to post family pics and talk about my vacation, you'd probably agree it didn't belong in the Model S forum. So I doubt you'd be upset it got moved. That's all the mods are trying to do is keep a thread on-topic. Rule of thumb is to let it wander about 5 posts (or 3), and then carve it out if it's not getting back on topic.
Carving out threads isn't always pretty. Sometimes innocent bystanders get caught up. Especially when it's 50 posts or so (which is more than was in the thread to begin with, iirc). We can't please everyone. I suspect (though no longer know) that there were plenty of fellow TMC members reporting the off-topic posts and begging the moderators to do a clean up. So while you may think it shouldn't have happened, I guarantee there are others here who believe it was long past due.
TMC will always try to keep threads on topic. There are some battles in life worth fighting and others not worth fighting. I'd advise picking a battle worth fighting.
I can understand completely the feeling of 'hey!! where did my post go??'. (I'm still slightly bothered after more than a year that I am shown as starting the 'BEV Dogma' thread. Because I didn't. Only saying that to say 'I get it'.)
But this forum is exploding. When I was still moderating, we'd have days where there would be constant new threads started on the same topic. "Hey guys! LOOK!! A video of [whatever]". It's pretty insane at times. Trying to keep order here is like trying to herd cats that have been on a bender imbibing meth-infused catnip. Some people think we don't do enough moderation (yep, you should see all the reports). Others, like you, would prefer we never moderate anything. And it gets pretty rough behind the scenes at times - I am not kidding when I say I carry TWO permanent restraining orders against a former TMC member who was miffed over a TOS violation and decided to target me. (On the other hand, I did get to know all the local law enforcement and some nice lawyers and a couple of really nice judges - always a silver lining.)
If I were to just hijack a thread to post family pics and talk about my vacation, you'd probably agree it didn't belong in the Model S forum. So I doubt you'd be upset it got moved. That's all the mods are trying to do is keep a thread on-topic. Rule of thumb is to let it wander about 5 posts (or 3), and then carve it out if it's not getting back on topic.
Carving out threads isn't always pretty. Sometimes innocent bystanders get caught up. Especially when it's 50 posts or so (which is more than was in the thread to begin with, iirc). We can't please everyone. I suspect (though no longer know) that there were plenty of fellow TMC members reporting the off-topic posts and begging the moderators to do a clean up. So while you may think it shouldn't have happened, I guarantee there are others here who believe it was long past due.
TMC will always try to keep threads on topic. There are some battles in life worth fighting and others not worth fighting. I'd advise picking a battle worth fighting.
You dodge the question. Your posts were not 'removed', they were moved and the place they were moved to was noted in the thread. And no, 'deleted/censored/removed/moved' are not the same thing. Note that each one is a separate word in the dictionary. Otherwise you could say 'I just censored from New York to Colorado to start a new job'. Words matter.
I supposed based on your argument if a forum sub topic is created labeled "Never Never Land" and information others have taken the time to share is moved to that forum sub topic, it is not censorship. I would respectfully disagree with that assertion as I would consider relevant information moved to another part of the site to absolutely be censorship as it prevents what someone took the time to share from being read by others.
My definition of censorship is very simple. If you shared information where it was relevant and that information you shared is no longer available to be viewed where it was shared I consider the information to have been censored and at that point whether the information was "moved" or "deleted" is a moot point as it is a matter of semantics.
We can certainly agree to disagree on this point.
I hope this post itself doesn't now get moved to "snippiness" or some other part of the site and I hope I was being respectful enough in making my point without putting the words I wrote in jeopardy of purgatory ...
The point I am making is I would not have to worry about such matters anywhere else online where adults share information. Adults should be able to discuss matters in a respectful way without having their words censored for arbitrary interpretations of terms such as "snippiness."Similar threads
