MsElectric, AR, Kugerrand and Johan discuss TMC moderation

[dirkhh]

It's a shame you dismiss other's views as them being "uninterested", perhaps try to listen to the fact that plenty of folks here try to be inclusive and it's not helped by constant criticism. I gave you a couple of examples and I can think of several more but just don't have the time (or the inclination now) to list them all.

I find this intriguing that the person who argues that we need to be more inclusive to people of differing opinion then turns around and dismisses and ignores those of us who disagree with him.
I sense a minor inconsistency here...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I find this intriguing that the person who argues that we need to be more inclusive to people of differing opinion then turns around and dismisses and ignores those of us who disagree with him.
I sense a minor inconsistency here...

Not a single person is on my ignore list. If you want to start on that road, I'd suggest going to someone else than me.

But you are not one of the reasons I diminished my role in this thread, so apologies if you got thrown in the mix. I will try to explain.

No need to seek intrigue, though. There is a certain set of people whom myself and them never seem to make any headway - and believe me, I've tried many threads' worth and probably gotten myself on many literal ignore lists for the noise such a clash creates. Unlike you, I have no aims of 10 000 messages. Yet I think I've exchanged dozens or hundreds of my messages with many of the same people. With some, we never seem to find any common ground over this medium. No ground given by anyone, thus no mutual understanding generated. When it seems we finally get somewhere, the other party falls silent, even that little progress denied.

In this case (and in this) I saw a thread evolving where a sole voice is the recipient of a dissection of a critical many - and that's all there is, and I see nothing fruitful coming out of it. The messages aren't evolving, there is no "ah, yes, I see that part of your point, true enough" by anyone, it is just a shred to pieces and/or ignore what can't be shredded to pieces. Even if I were to spend hours explaining, the likelihood of any material difference - even to the extent where people agree to disagree with real mutual understanding and respect - is very low. I'm not interested in that. I don't see anything fruitful for TMC about such a thread either. Very few topics in reality are so black and white that common ground couldn't be sought (even if disagreeing on parts of it), but for some reason I don't see a common interest to do that in such threads, and that's why participating gives diminishing returns.

I do acknowledge part of it must be simple miscommunication and misunderstanding, hence the reference to a round of beers, but I also must admit my cynicism that a part of it is simply to not give the opponent an inch, now that things have gotten a little polarized. With such a situation, who knows if I am better than my worse demons either, probably not. Like I said to bonnie about the ignore, I'm sorry too we couldn't make the communication work - it does take two to tango and I'm one of them, certainly.

With some others, like AnOutsider, I've created actual mutual understanding. I'd joust any issue with him any day. But these voices often bow out of threads quite early on and what is left is some fight to the finish.

Now, underneath this all there is still the point I've made for those who think it is relevant. If you think I have a point on how to make TMC more friendly and diverse, please do your bid to make it so. I think it would be for the benefit of all. If you don't think what I say applies to TMC at all, I can understand why you wouldn't find it relevant and that's fine too. I do respect that view as well. Trust me, I really do - and part of me letting it be is doing it exactly because of that.

 

[dirkhh]

In this case (and in this) I saw a thread evolving where a sole voice is the recipient of a dissection of a critical many - and that's all there is, and I see nothing fruitful coming out of it. The messages aren't evolving, there is no "ah, yes, I see that part of your point, true enough" by anyone, it is just a shred to pieces and/or ignore what can't be shredded to pieces. Even if I were to spend hours explaining, the likelihood of any material difference - even to the extent where people agree to disagree with real mutual understanding and respect - is very low. I'm not interested in that. I don't see anything fruitful for TMC about such a thread either. Very few topics in reality are so black and white that common ground couldn't be sought (even if disagreeing on parts of it), but for some reason I don't see a common interest to do that in such threads, and that's why participating gives diminishing returns.

I do acknowledge part of it must be simple miscommunication and misunderstanding, hence the reference to a round of beers, but I also must admit my cynicism that a part of it is simply to not give the opponent an inch, now that things have gotten a little polarized. With such a situation, who knows if I am better than my worse demons either, probably not. Like I said to bonnie about the ignore, I'm sorry too we couldn't make the communication work - it does take two to tango and I'm one of them, certainly.

I do think that the juxtaposition of these two statements that I bolded above is part of the problem. You keep waiting for others to acknowledge that you are right and that you are making a a good point.
Yet your message doesn't evolve at all.
Look at the thread about "speculation" vs. "analysis". Several people tried to explain to you why what you are doing is speculation. Including citing dictionary entries, giving tons of examples, etc. You in return keep coming back to "this doesn't apply, what I do is analysis".
I don't see how you think you'll get to a point where messages evolve if you ignore what others say and simply steadfast repeat your point.

Now, underneath this all there is still the point I've made for those who think it is relevant. If you think I have a point on how to make TMC more friendly and diverse, please do your bid to make it so. I think it would be for the benefit of all. If you don't think what I say applies to TMC at all, I can understand why you wouldn't find it relevant and that's fine too. I do respect that view as well. Trust me, I really do - and part of me letting it be is doing it exactly because of that.

And most everyone here has stated over and over again (and shown examples) that we are going out of our way to be friendly and open and diverse.
But repeated assertion doesn't make facts. And seeking compromise by saying "my position is unmoving, so for compromise you need to change your position and join mine" isn't really seeking compromise.
We are open to diverse opinions.
We are not open to being bludgeoned into agreeing to your positions just because you refuse to acknowledge any point that you don't like.

Oh and you state in your post that no one is on your ignore list. That's neat. Except that you so obviously ignore arguments that you don't like. You even say so quite explicitly in some of your posts.

 

[dsm363]

I still don't get what battle you are fighting but glad you are going to let it rest. Basically everyone here agrees with you that TMC should be welcoming to all and we already try to make that happen. You don't seem to think it is and honestly don't know what you want us to change. There is no opponent or battle of inches here. Not everything has to have a middle ground. Sometimes people are simply misinformed so there is no middle ground.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I do think that the juxtaposition of these two statements that I bolded above is part of the problem. You keep waiting for others to acknowledge that you are right and that you are making a a good point.
Yet your message doesn't evolve at all.
Look at the thread about "speculation" vs. "analysis". Several people tried to explain to you why what you are doing is speculation. Including citing dictionary entries, giving tons of examples, etc. You in return keep coming back to "this doesn't apply, what I do is analysis".
I don't see how you think you'll get to a point where messages evolve if you ignore what others say and simply steadfast repeat your point.

And most everyone here has stated over and over again (and shown examples) that we are going out of our way to be friendly and open and diverse.
But repeated assertion doesn't make facts. And seeking compromise by saying "my position is unmoving, so for compromise you need to change your position and join mine" isn't really seeking compromise.
We are open to diverse opinions.
We are not open to being bludgeoned into agreeing to your positions just because you refuse to acknowledge any point that you don't like.

Oh and you state in your post that no one is on your ignore list. That's neat. Except that you so obviously ignore arguments that you don't like. You even say so quite explicitly in some of your posts.

dirkhh: Thank you for taking the time to respond.

I haven't criticized the ignore list, people are free to use it if they so wish, even though public promotion of said feature in debate threads seems a little suspect morally - a little bit like ganging up, shunning down. But as a personal choice, the ignore list is in my opinion a fine tool and feel free to use as needed. That said, I read all messages to me (that I know of). A choice to forgo a response in a futile-seeming (personal opinion) case is not the same as ignoring the effort of others to post entirely.

Safe to say, I don't think my position is unmoving - and I've given my share of counter-examples and citations in the case of the great analysis vs. speculation case that get summarily ignored. You only participated in the latter part of it, I guess, perhaps you can't see why I shied away from it fairly soon this time.

Like I said, with some people's interactions mutual understanding seems to come naturally (even when a major part of it may be, a disagreement on some premise or section of it), with others it is much harder. I'm sure myself as a participant is to blame as well. For every message of "you're on ignore list" and "you're wrong", I often get PMs and reps saying they agree with me but choose not to join the public bloodbath. Your liberal use of "we" in your message does not represent all, I assure you.

But there is nothing good, for anyone, in a conversation that gets to such a point.

Finally, for every message "why did you stop", I get messages of "why didn't you stop sooner". As I've said to others, I'm here to contribute and if it feels like it isn't possible or happening, then it is better to let be.

 

[NigelM]

I haven't criticized the ignore list, people are free to use it if they so wish, even though public promotion of said feature in debate threads seems a little suspect morally -

But not 'morally suspect' to criticize folks you know aren't seeing this? Would be nice for this not to get personal. Just sayin'......

 

[AnxietyRanger]

But not 'morally suspect' to criticize folks you know aren't seeing this? Would be nice for this not to get personal. Just sayin'......

People using ignore list are doing it by a choice of their own - and their choice to promote it in debate threads has been their own as well.

But sure, shunning works, it has almost silenced me as well.

 

[dirkhh]

But not 'morally suspect' to criticize folks you know aren't seeing this? Would be nice for this not to get personal. Just sayin'......

I'm starting to change my position from "trying to engage, hoping to get to a point where AR sees why people argue with him" to "stop feeding the troll".
AR: you pick a random sentence from people's post, try to find ways to twist them into something you can disagree with and then ignore the rest.
The reason this discussion isn't moving anywhere is pretty clear to me.
I'm glad that you have people that tell you that you are their hero and that you are fighting the good fight. Maybe you and those people SHOULD find your own forum where you aren't bothered by the rest of us.
And yes, I'm using 'we' and 'us' where I am confident that I am speaking for the majority of the people on this forum, certainly for the vast majority of the respected active contributors.
I saw your dig about "trying to get to 10k posts". I chose to ignore it. But if most of the most active and most respected people on the forum disagree with you, then the two options are "they are all wrong" or "you are wrong".
I'll go with Occam's Razor here.

 

[NigelM]

But sure, shunning works, it has almost silenced me as well.

You're very good at the sly insults and then adding a smiley face. Personally I also find it distasteful to be insulting people just because they don't agree with you.....and I thought that was what your crusade was all about. [smh]

I'm done here.

 

[Krugerrand]

People using ignore list are doing it by a choice of their own - and their choice to promote it in debate threads has been their own as well.

But sure, shunning works, it has almost silenced me as well.

Since, by your own words 'people using ignore list are doing it by a choice of their own' CLEARLY that means even if promotion of it in debate threads exists it is IRRELEVANT.

 

[bonnie]

But not 'morally suspect' to criticize folks you know aren't seeing this? Would be nice for this not to get personal. Just sayin'......

Debatable regarding public promotion. I mentioned I'd put someone on ignore. I was asked if there really was an ignore function. And just like ANY other request of 'how do I [whatever]?', I took a screen shot and showed where it was. I guess showing the option could be argued as public promotion. But the way your quoted part is worded, it sounds like I was out there saying 'C'mon everyone, do THIS!'. And that is absolutely not true.

I repeatedly had asked the person to quit taking shots at me or assigning motivation to my posts, such as 'trying to stop conversation or protect Tesla'. Things as simple as someone asking if it was known yet what the difference was between Model S and Model X clearance & my answer of 'Tesla has not yet released specifications' was deemed as curt and dismissive. -sigh- There comes a point where these kind of interactions are just not healthy. So I chose to get out of the conversation. But I see by the constant content quoted by everyone, that the potshots continue.

I really REALLY just wish it could all go peaceful again, that the passive-aggressive digs at me and other senior members would stop, and we could focus on the topic of this forum: Teslas and EVs in general.

I'm asking everyone who has any respect for me at all, to please let this topic end. It's a beautiful day, a welcome rainstorm has been pounding away at the house, the air smells wonderful outside, and I'm focusing on the things in life that matter. This? This doesn't matter.

Peace.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

You're very good at the sly insults and then adding a smiley face. Personally I also find it distasteful to be insulting people just because they don't agree with you.....and I though that was your crusade was all about. [smh]

That one actually wasn't meant to be a sly insult - more like putting a brave face on a rather sad fact. The part where people, amidst discussion, start communally working on an ignore list isn't necessarily a very nice part.

But because some say it is warranted, others say it is bullying, and others don't think it is much at all, there is really very little point debating it.

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Since, by your own words 'people using ignore list are doing it by a choice of their own' CLEARLY that means even if promotion of it in debate threads exists it is IRRELEVANT.

Only if one assumes promotion doesn't affect the choice. I'm pretty sure promotion and a mob mentality do affect it. That's actually why shunning works.

 

[dirkhh]

That one actually wasn't meant to be a sly insult - more like putting a brave face on a rather sad fact. The part where people, amidst discussion, start communally working on an ignore list isn't necessarily a very nice part.

They aren't. That is you once again being passive aggressive, assigning intent and motivation to others because it fits your story line.

But because some say it is warranted, others say it is bullying, and others don't think it is much at all, there is really very little point debating it.

Actually, no one has said that an ignore list is bullying. You are the one saying it here. Yet another underhanded insult, lobbed at people who disagree with you.

Any moderators around here? At what stage get people banned from TMC for stuff like this.

And yes, AR. Now you can claim that I started a conversation about having you banned from TMC. That should give you fodder for at least another dozen insults...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I really REALLY just wish it could all go peaceful again, that the passive-aggressive digs at me and other senior members would stop, and we could focus on the topic of this forum: Teslas and EVs in general.

I think I wrote you a perfectly nice PM in response back in the day of the ignore, accepted your offer to leave us in peace and left you in peace.

Next thing I know, you are publicly discussing the ignore in the thread I was active in - and got others to join in, with a sly smiley or two.

Not once in our exchanges have I heard you consider your part in the equation at all.

Like I said in the PM I'm sorry I couldn't make our dialogue work. But it isn't and never was only up to me either.

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They aren't. That is you once again being passive aggressive, assigning intent and motivation to others because it fits your story line.

Just the other day Canuck and Johan discussed ignoring my mid-debate and went on to do so. This isn't about a singular event. bonnie started a trend.

One more time: I have nothing against using ignore lists if it suits people. The only thing I considered somewhat suspect is teaming up / publicly promoting its use. I'm not so sure that is a good thing.

Actually, no one has said that an ignore list is bullying. You are the one saying it here. Yet another underhanded insult, lobbed at people who disagree with you.

I refer to a private exchange there.

 

[Krugerrand]

Yep, that's my assumption as a grown adult capable of making choices that are in my best interest regardless of what others say or do.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Yep, that's my assumption as a grown adult capable of making choices that are in my best interest regardless of what others say or do.

Reality would say otherwise, several people have started using ignore - clearly by their comments - only after it had been suggested by another member.

Nevertheless, I really don't find the ignore list a bad feature, it certainly has its uses and I welcome it. But at worst it does allow a bit of ganging up in a debate.

 

[NigelM]

@Kruggerand: Should we rename you Princess Shalmar?

 

[Krugerrand]

My reality is exactly as I wrote it, therefore reality is not 'otherwise'. I'm choosing to believe that all the other adults on the forum have the same inherent ability that I have; to make decisions that are in their best interest, regardless of what others say/write/promote/advertise/speculate/fill in your word of choice.

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@Kruggerand: Should we rename you Princess Shalmar?

I am unfamiliar with that reference, but I'm sure I've been called worse. :biggrin: Would a Princess Shalmar outrank a Princess Tesla?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

My reality is exactly as I wrote it, therefore reality is not 'otherwise'. I'm choosing to believe that all the other adults on the forum have the same inherent ability that I have; to make decisions that are in their best interest, regardless of what others say/write/promote/advertise/speculate/fill in your word of choice.

But in this case the comments of the people would contradict your reality. Several have said having done so due to online recommendation. And public conversation of the ignore has ensued in those threads a couple of times, while the ignored party is effectively shut out.

Not that me offering you the links would change anything, I know, not an inch!

See, looking at the latest, this is exactly why this kind of stuff works best over those beers. Not only might the beer round the edges a little so to speak, these kinds are difficult conversations over long distances and emotionless text.

Most where we have clashed, I hope, is mere misunderstanding of each other.

 

[Krugerrand]

I'm not aware of any contradiction that is relevant to my reality.

A round of beer isn't going to help your case from my side of the line; I don't drink beer and at this point dirkh would be wise to take the bet that I'm very likely to dump the pitcher of beer over your head if I find myself sitting at the same table. (That's only half joking.)