Multiple CA Supercharger locations down in past 5 months: breakdowns, vandalism, or theft?

[FlatSix911]

It is also possible that the six Supercharger locations were not all targeted by the same perpetrators. Tesla can attempt to solve this problem by adding additional protection to the enclosures where all the expensive hardware is located, such as chain link fencing on top to form a "roof" of sorts. However that can be penetrated without a great deal of effort. A more secure roof will require extensive modifications to the enclosures, and it will have to have sufficient ventilation to handle the heat generated by the transformers and inverters.

If these incidents continue to occur, this could be a serious problem for Tesla. Security cameras could help, but can't stop such incidents since the perpatrators could park their vehicle away from the cameras and then wear hats/masks/hoods to obscure their identity.

Better Super charger security is essential going forward ... especially with the Model 3 tsunami on the horizon

 

[cybergates]

prob easiest way would be to hire a security guard. You don't see a gas station left totally unattended...there's always someone inside the convenience store. That being said is there some place to see if a supercharger station status is before embarking on a road trip

 

[McManX]

prob easiest way would be to hire a security guard. You don't see a gas station left totally unattended...there's always someone inside the convenience store. That being said is there some place to see if a supercharger station status is before embarking on a road trip

Map in car nav, here, and PlugShare.

 

[cybergates]

Map in car nav, here, and PlugShare.

thanks I don't have the car yet but very soon

 

[wdolson]

In the electronics industry, there is a robust underground in counterfeit parts. Most of the large electronics parts houses are now starting to test parts to make sure they are legitimate. Last fall I was working on an integrated circuit tester.

For thieves it would be worth it to steal real and expensive parts and then sell them back into the supply chain through the same channels where counterfeit parts are getting in.

With expensive parts like these circuit breakers, the market could be narrowed quite a bit by putting serial numbers on the breakers that would be difficult to tamper with. Say etch part or all of the number into the part. Any installation needs to be signed off by an electrical inspector before it can go live. One of their steps could be to punch in the serial number of the breakers and make sure they aren't stolen and the numbers are valid.

It would require the entire supply chain to buy in and would require inspectors to take an extra step. It also wouldn't help for older breakers already installed, but owners like Tesla could etch their own information into the location where the serial numbers go on new breakers. It would send up flags with inspectors if the serial number area has been tampered with to erase any ID information.

This would be if these are being stolen with the intent to resell. At this point, I think too many breakers have been stolen for it to be somebody's electricity stealing project or something. If it is deliberate vandalism by someone trying to hurt Tesla, they are taking one of the most expensive, portable parts in supercharger installations and they obviously know what they are doing. That tells me it isn't someone just trying to manipulate the stock price, it's a deep pockets and sophisticated player hiring well trained thieves to do their bidding.

I lean towards the small timers stealing breakers to resell on the black market theory. It makes the most sense. For a deep pockets player to resort to this kind of vandalism isn't unknown, but they have other tools available that aren't as risky.

 

[cpa]

I am trying to understand the configuration of these devices. Tell me where I am wrong, please.

The power comes from the grid. Power goes through the big green box of a transformer. Transformed power goes into the charger stacks inside the enclosure. Charger stacks switch the current from alternating to direct. Direct current flows to the charging stalls.

Where along this circuit are these expensive circuit breakers? Is there only one circuit breaker per installation, or are there multiple? I assume that they are situated inside the enclosure somewhere.

Anyway, would it make sense to redesign these installations to make the removal of these circuit breakers a long and arduous task? Or would that be impractical from a servicing point of view for the Tesla technicians?

 

[ecarfan]

Just pointing out that the Gustine breaker allegedly failed/went bad and was not stolen (unless there is something I missed).

My apologies, I misunderstood. Thanks for the correction.

Although my text was exact, it was not very clear. What I meant was that the circuit breaker either tripped or itself was bad or both. "Failed" covered both possible explanations (nonexclusively).

Okay. But one circuit breaker failing in some way would not take down all the stalls at a Supercharger location, would it?

 

[ecarfan]

There have been many reports of down SuperChargers in many other locations over the years. It often causes travel pains for those accustomed to using them. The most recent one I read about that I remember was from @yobigd20, when his car shut down a few hundred feet from his property and he had to run two extension cords out to trickle-charge his car for a long while before it would turn on again to drive it up his driveway to plug it in properly

I do not understand what that story about @yobigd20 running out of charge a fraction of a mile away from his home has to do with the topic of this thread.

 

[mrElbe]

A lot of the newer Superchargers have no enclosure around the cabinets at all. At least that is what I observed on Canada and East Coast trips.

 

[ohmman]

I love that the link you provided, there is the ability to "auto reorder-once a month" $14,000
Weighing in at 28 pounds, I hope this isn't something we have to carry in our charging adapter kit.

Unsubscribe!

 

[miimura]

I am trying to understand the configuration of these devices. Tell me where I am wrong, please.

The power comes from the grid. Power goes through the big green box of a transformer. Transformed power goes into the charger stacks inside the enclosure. Charger stacks switch the current from alternating to direct. Direct current flows to the charging stalls.

Where along this circuit are these expensive circuit breakers? Is there only one circuit breaker per installation, or are there multiple? I assume that they are situated inside the enclosure somewhere.

Anyway, would it make sense to redesign these installations to make the removal of these circuit breakers a long and arduous task? Or would that be impractical from a servicing point of view for the Tesla technicians?

You missed one of the big boxes in the chain of power. After the utility transformer is a distribution cabinet. These big breakers are in there. The distribution cabinet is a set of huge bus bars and one breaker goes to one Supercharger cabinet. It's basically analogous to the main breaker panel in your house, but much larger.

 

[Ulmo]

I do not understand what that story about @yobigd20 running out of charge a fraction of a mile away from his home has to do with the topic of this thread.

He got to a down SuperCharger and had to drive home at extremely slow speeds from there and didn't even make it actually except for the extension cords.

It shows one example of the difficulty of dealing with a SuperCharger network with sites that are down. It's not a really great thing.

This is part of the consideration of how to deal with a string of down SC's or even just one, as well as the thoughts going into design so far.

I see it as related in those ways, and that's why I brought it up.

I reiterate my request for Tesla to officially open up their SuperCharging standard for 3rd party charging sites so that competitive charging sites could supply our charging needs. I'm aware of many of the issues this has, and I know that I'm requesting that these get worked out and dealt with as they happen and before, if possible.

 

[Ulmo]

In the electronics industry, there is a robust underground in counterfeit parts. Most of the large electronics parts houses are now starting to test parts to make sure they are legitimate. Last fall I was working on an integrated circuit tester.

For thieves it would be worth it to steal real and expensive parts and then sell them back into the supply chain through the same channels where counterfeit parts are getting in.

With expensive parts like these circuit breakers, the market could be narrowed quite a bit by putting serial numbers on the breakers that would be difficult to tamper with. Say etch part or all of the number into the part. Any installation needs to be signed off by an electrical inspector before it can go live. One of their steps could be to punch in the serial number of the breakers and make sure they aren't stolen and the numbers are valid.

It would require the entire supply chain to buy in and would require inspectors to take an extra step. It also wouldn't help for older breakers already installed, but owners like Tesla could etch their own information into the location where the serial numbers go on new breakers. It would send up flags with inspectors if the serial number area has been tampered with to erase any ID information.

This would be if these are being stolen with the intent to resell. At this point, I think too many breakers have been stolen for it to be somebody's electricity stealing project or something. If it is deliberate vandalism by someone trying to hurt Tesla, they are taking one of the most expensive, portable parts in supercharger installations and they obviously know what they are doing. That tells me it isn't someone just trying to manipulate the stock price, it's a deep pockets and sophisticated player hiring well trained thieves to do their bidding.

I lean towards the small timers stealing breakers to resell on the black market theory. It makes the most sense. For a deep pockets player to resort to this kind of vandalism isn't unknown, but they have other tools available that aren't as risky.

I like the motivations of your ideas. I think they're a little impractical, but with work could become practical.

So:

• Manufacturer registered with sealed tamper proof very unlikely to forge electronic cryptographic key(s) and GPS locator integrated into device in such way bypass becomes VERY visibly code noncompliant and device ruined if tampered with. Would require manufacturer GPS acknowledgedment and double check against stolen database to turn on after reinstallation and would self-locate every fortnight and send error (red light and beeping) if it didn't contact manufacturer successfully and shut down a fortnight later if not fixed. Customers would hate to have stolen breakers that shut down a month after installation (assuming the thief steals it and installs it in a few hours from theft with a GPS spoofer transceiver system before manufacturer marks it as stolen, activates it, then a fortnight later the thief blocks the cell signal so it does not pick up the manufacturer stolen signal, and then finally it times out as not updated authorization).
• Make the bus to breaker lock so difficult to take the breaker off without the correct key that it busts the breaker visibly and makes it impossible to repair in a way any dumb inspector would ever pass it even fully reinstalled and packed in. Maybe the ground bus bar would be in front? I have no idea how to achieve this, but it seems obvious to me.
• Make those cabinets traps somehow to catch thieves. Whether it is an infomatics or physical trap is irrelevant to me, but I guess all the thieves that would die in a physical trap would put a damper on that style. Installers who misinstall could be killed, too. The infomatics approach seems better (sensors that communicate access attempts). And just harden the hell out of those cases. Can SpaceX build them out of some super strong alloy material like carbon fiber? Quartz could cover it, and as soon as it is busted at all, it could break a signal at some guard shack and cause a rundown of all activity there and catch thieves red handed. This tamper resistance can be an enclosure that drops around existing cases even.

This is a challenging problem.

I don't think serial numbers would fix it. I don't think inspectors would ever check them (in areas targeted for stolen sales, and that's all it would take). Even foreign countries happy to receive stolen goods could use them.

 

[wdolson]

I like the motivations of your ideas. I think they're a little impractical, but with work could become practical.

So:

• Manufacturer registered with sealed tamper proof very unlikely to forge electronic cryptographic key(s) and GPS locator integrated into device in such way bypass becomes VERY visibly code noncompliant and device ruined if tampered with. Would require manufacturer GPS acknowledgedment and double check against stolen database to turn on after reinstallation and would self-locate every fortnight and send error (red light and beeping) if it didn't contact manufacturer successfully and shut down a fortnight later if not fixed. Customers would hate to have stolen breakers that shut down a month after installation (assuming the thief steals it and installs it in a few hours from theft with a GPS spoofer transceiver system before manufacturer marks it as stolen, activates it, then a fortnight later the thief blocks the cell signal so it does not pick up the manufacturer stolen signal, and then finally it times out as not updated authorization).
• Make the bus to breaker lock so difficult to take the breaker off without the correct key that it busts the breaker visibly and makes it impossible to repair in a way any dumb inspector would ever pass it even fully reinstalled and packed in. Maybe the ground bus bar would be in front? I have no idea how to achieve this, but it seems obvious to me.
• Make those cabinets traps somehow to catch thieves. Whether it is an infomatics or physical trap is irrelevant to me, but I guess all the thieves that would die in a physical trap would put a damper on that style. Installers who misinstall could be killed, too. The infomatics approach seems better (sensors that communicate access attempts). And just harden the hell out of those cases. Can SpaceX build them out of some super strong alloy material like carbon fiber? Quartz could cover it, and as soon as it is busted at all, it could break a signal at some guard shack and cause a rundown of all activity there and catch thieves red handed. This tamper resistance can be an enclosure that drops around existing cases even.

This is a challenging problem.

I don't think serial numbers would fix it. I don't think inspectors would ever check them (in areas targeted for stolen sales, and that's all it would take). Even foreign countries happy to receive stolen goods could use them.

It doesn't need to be that complex. All that needs to be done is emboss some kind of serial number into the part in such a way that it would be obvious if the number was ground off. Inspectors have access to a database with stolen numbers in it and if they see evidence a number has been removed, or the number is showing stolen in the database, they call the police.

A lot of expensive parts and equipment have codes like that. A VIN on a vehicle serves as that sort of thing. There are ways around it, but VIN numbers deter the easiest forms of car theft. The cars can still be sent to other countries that are less picky about the rules, and cars can be broken down for parts and sold off. But you really can't walk into your local DMV and try to register a stolen car without walking out in handcuffs, or at minimum have some unwanted attention from the police and probably have the car taken from your possession.

 

[S-dog]

I like the idea about Tesla marking the breakers in some way that makes them less desirable on the black market. There is also a restraining bolt on these breakers that they may want to change to a tamperproof bolt.
The funny thing is that these aren't high demand breakers so the aftermarket breaker guys shouldn't really want too many of them. These vandals are saturating that market and will probably get diminishing returns with each site they hit.
Oh,...and don't buy them from Grainger ... $14k is a joke.

 

[Nosken]

Looks like the price is around $7,500.
Not as bad as we thought, still pricey.
https://www.google.com/search?q=MJA363006

 

[S-dog]

I would bet Tesla pays under $3k... I wonder what the black market value is on the stolen ones.

 

[McRat]

I would bet Tesla pays under $3k... I wonder what the black market value is on the stolen ones.

I doubt there is much of a 'black market' on them. And I would look closely at companies and staff who have been contracted to build or service superchargers.

Thieves tend to be dumb and opportunists. Many property crimes are inside jobs, even home burglaries. Somebody knew what was inside those cabinets. I would not be surprised if stolen breakers end up inside a new supercharger or as a service part of a failed supercharger.

 

[ohmman]

Just to be clear, we only have one report of stolen breakers - Barstow in November, 2016. @ecarfan accidentally misrepresented @Ulmo's comments about the recent Gustine outage in his OP.

It just looks like the thread is starting to make theft assumptions across the board when we've only seen it once. It's probably wise to avoid that broad generalization.

 

[ecarfan]

Just to be clear, we only have one report of stolen breakers - Barstow in November, 2016. @ecarfan accidentally misrepresented @Ulmo's comments about the recent Gustine outage in his OP.

It just looks like the thread is starting to make theft assumptions across the board when we've only seen it once. It's probably wise to avoid that broad generalization.

Yep, I inadvertently misrepresented what was reported about the Gustine location, and I corrected that upthread.

Let's not generalize about the problem at multiple locations. We don't have enough reliable information. While it is likely it is the same thieves/vandals, we don't know. There could be copycats.