Musk said all cars would get HW 3.0, according to InsideEVs Article

[Tam]

I was unequivocally told that the onky way to get HW3 was to order FSD for 10k CAD.

Remember. Once you are hooked to the high tech addiction, it's just like needing the latest iPhone. iPhone 3 was not the end of your spending, now it's iPhone 11 and there's no end.

You would think that you only need to pay for HW3, but there's no end because HW4 is already here, but it's waiting for you to buy HW3 first:

 

[Tam]

My point is - this is not what Musk said we would get and I am disappointed.

I know. But what are your options in this real-world now?

 

[sduck]

The piece of paper you signed upon purchase is legally binding. If it said you have or would get HW3 you have a legitimate claim. EM's words are not legally binding, no matter how much you'd like them to be.

 

[OCR1]

Elon did state that Tesla had switched over to installing HW3 on Model 3’s produced after April 12, 2019. We know now that this was not true. Many cars were produced and sold after April 12th with HW2.5. A family member of mine purchased an SR that was built in June 2019 and still had HW2.5.

To this date Elon has never publicly acknowledged nor explained why Tesla continued to produce cars in Fremont with HW2.5 after April 12th, nor offered to do anything about it.

The same thing happened in China, but the backlash from consumers and the Chinese Government was severe, so Elon did publicly acknowledge there was a supply shortage due to COVID and they had gone back to installing HW2.5 in some of their cars. He apologized and offered a free upgrade to everyone regardless of whether they purchased FSD.

So why did Elon handle China so differently than the US? Because in China you are expected to do what you say you are going to do. Doing otherwise is dishonorable and you will lose credibility with your customer base if you don’t honor your word. In the US we are used to sales BS and we accept it as a part of our culture. So we don’t hold companies accountable unless we get things in writing, which of course did not happen in this case.

 

[Tam]

...they had gone back to installing HW2.5 in some of their cars. He apologized and offered a free upgrade to everyone regardless of whether they purchased FSD...

Did China go to court to get the ruling against Tesla or are you saying it's just peer pressure that made Tesla voluntarily upgrade all Chinese HW2.5 to HW3.0?

 

[C141medic]

Did China go to court to get the ruling against Tesla or are you saying it's just peer pressure that made Tesla voluntarily upgrade all Chinese HW2.5 to HW3.0?

I think it was hardly “voluntary.” This was actually a huge win for consumers in China, of all places. Here’s an article that goes into more detail.
Tesla's honeymoon in China strained by chip downgrade row

 

[Tam]

...hardly “voluntary.”...

Thanks for the article.

The Ministry of Industry and Information Technology "has ordered Tesla to immediately rectify the problem according to related regulations".

So, that's not voluntary.

Based on what happened in China, It now does sound like @moorej999 might have a case.

 

[moorej999]

I am n

The piece of paper you signed upon purchase is legally binding. If it said you have or would get HW3 you have a legitimate claim. EM's words are not legally binding, no matter how much you'd like them to be.

Why does everyone keep talking about “legalities”? I never once mentioned legalities. This is about honour and integrity. When I purchased the car in June, 2019, from what I was told, the only way to see what hardware you had was to rip open the dash. I understand that only in 2020 did they add it to “addition information” tab (please correct me if I am wrong). So it feels to me like Tesla intentionally hid the hardware version and put something in a lot less powerful then what they led me to believe. Was this done in bad faith? I expected much better from Tesla. This customer feels mislead - regardless of the legalities here. I still hold out hope that honesty and integrity will prevail.

 

[moorej999]

Remember. Once you are hooked to the high tech addiction, it's just like needing the latest iPhone. iPhone 3 was not the end of your spending, now it's iPhone 11 and there's no end.

You would think that you only need to pay for HW3, but there's no end because HW4 is already here, but it's waiting for you to buy HW3 first:

 

[Runt8]

“All Tesla’s being produced right now...”

He didn’t say all Tesla’s produced now and all Tesla’s in the future. There’s absolutely nothing in what he said that precludes Tesla from installing HW 2.5 in later cars.

The only reason it was a problem in China was because Tesla was advertising HW3 in all Chinese produced Model 3s.

 

[captain_sahaj]

It

I am n

Why does everyone keep talking about “legalities”? I never once mentioned legalities. This is about honour and integrity. When I purchased the car in June, 2019, from what I was told, the only way to see what hardware you had was to rip open the dash. I understand that only in 2020 did they add it to “addition information” tab (please correct me if I am wrong). So it feels to me like Tesla intentionally hid the hardware version and put something in a lot less powerful then what they led me to believe. Was this done in bad faith? I expected much better from Tesla. This customer feels mislead - regardless of the legalities here. I still hold out hope that honesty and integrity will prevail.

Its a ok. Just not worry and everything will be fine since your autopilot will work the same regardless whether you have 2.5 or 3

 

[rdunniii]

I am n

Why does everyone keep talking about “legalities”? I never once mentioned legalities. This is about honour and integrity. When I purchased the car in June, 2019, from what I was told, the only way to see what hardware you had was to rip open the dash. I understand that only in 2020 did they add it to “addition information” tab (please correct me if I am wrong). So it feels to me like Tesla intentionally hid the hardware version and put something in a lot less powerful then what they led me to believe. Was this done in bad faith? I expected much better from Tesla. This customer feels mislead - regardless of the legalities here. I still hold out hope that honesty and integrity will prevail.

OK, I stopped laughing. Business has no honor or integrity; period, stop, end. That disappeared in the US decades ago and may have never really existed. Legality is all that matters. Trying to hold ANY corporate entity to a higher standard (even slightly higher) is a fools errand.

I live in a Del Webb community and many neighbors are angry that it is not acting like a Del Webb community; whatever that is. I have to laugh at them too. Del Webb is a corporate name owned by Pulte Construction who is under no legal requirement to provide anything other than what is in the purchase agreement. And they don't.

If it is not a legality it IS fiction. And misleading is perfectly legal, as long as it is not in writing. Go to any car dealership and try and get the dealership to put ANYTHING the people in the dealership SAID in the purchase agreement and watch how fast they decline/refuse.

 

[Tam]

...OK, I stopped laughing. Business has no honor or integrity; period, stop, end...If it is not a legality it IS fiction. And misleading is perfectly legal, as long as it is not in writing. Go to any car dealership and try and get the dealership to put ANYTHING the people in the dealership SAID in the purchase agreement and watch how fast they decline/refuse.

Exactly!

The primary purpose of business is to make money any way they can as long as they don't lose profit.

If cheating causes them to lose profits because of fines then they try not to cheat or at least try to cheat without getting caught which is what you presented the case of a salesperson tactic above (verbal but not written cheats).

 

[moorej999]

“All Tesla’s being produced right now...”

He didn’t say all Tesla’s produced now and all Tesla’s in the future. There’s absolutely nothing in what he said that precludes Tesla from installing HW 2.5 in later cars.

The only reason it was a problem in China was because Tesla was advertising HW3 in all Chinese produced Model 3s.

You must work for Tesla. What a bunch of BS. He also said they “switched over”

 

[moorej999]

Exactly!

The primary purpose of business is to make money any way they can as long as they don't lose profit.

If cheating causes them to lose profits because of fines then they try not to cheat or at least try to cheat without getting caught which is what you presented the case of a salesperson tactic above (verbal but not written cheats).

Well I don’t subscribe to this level of thinking. I would be surprised if Musk does either. I still hold out hope.

 

[OCR1]

It was wrong for Elon to tell people that cars produced after April 12th will have HW3 and then not follow through. It may not rise to the level of being a legal issue, but it was just wrong. Tesla would have never got away with doing this in China, but we have much lower standards for conduct in the US.

 

[Tam]

Well I don’t subscribe to this level of thinking. I would be surprised if Musk does either. I still hold out hope.

It is perfectly fine to be idealistic about the world.

You must not hear about software-enabled features that are assured by Tesla as tied to VIN (only one owner needs to pay to activate it forever. If there will 10 owers later bought that same VIN, they don't have to re-pay 10 more times again or for a total of 11 times (1 original, 10 subsequent owners.)

However, some bought used Tesla cars from non-Tesla sources (non-Tesla dealerships and private owners) were caught off guard when Tesla wanted them to pay those features again such as Ludicrous Mode, EAP / FSD...

One used Tesla owner had to whistleblow to the press to get Tesla honor that software-enabled feature tied with VIN with no additional charge for the current owner.

For those who paid extra money for Model "Tech Package" in 2012 that specifically listed one of the reasons you pay extra for it:

16 GB internal hard drive

Song Storage on Hard-Drive Feature--When will it be activated? | Tesla

We kept waited and it never came.

Same with the include description for the Tech Package: " lighted vanity mirrors". If we wanted it, we just have to pay for a whole new car at a later time.

I never made a big fuss about being cheated until I see that you are not realistic with Tesla.

 

[moorej999]

It is perfectly fine to be idealistic about the world.

You must not hear about software-enabled features that are assured by Tesla as tied to VIN (only one owner needs to pay to activate it forever. If there will 10 owers later bought that same VIN, they don't have to re-pay 10 more times again or for a total of 11 times (1 original, 10 subsequent owners.)

However, some bought used Tesla cars from non-Tesla sources (non-Tesla dealerships and private owners) were caught off guard when Tesla wanted them to pay those features again such as Ludicrous Mode, EAP / FSD...

One used Tesla owner had to whistleblow to the press to get Tesla honor that software-enabled feature tied with VIN with no additional charge for the current owner.

For those who paid extra money for Model "Tech Package" in 2012 that specifically listed one of the reasons you pay extra for it:

16 GB internal hard drive

Song Storage on Hard-Drive Feature--When will it be activated? | Tesla

We kept waited and it never came.

Same with the include description for the Tech Package: " lighted vanity mirrors". If we wanted it, we just have to pay for a whole new car at a later time.

I never made a big fuss about being cheated until I see that you are not realistic with Tesla.

It was wrong for Elon to tell people that cars produced after April 12th will have HW3 and then not follow through. It may not rise to the level of being a legal issue, but it was just wrong. Tesla would have never got away with doing this in China, but we have much lower standards for conduct in the US.

 

[rdskill]

They've been competently handling these freeway interchanges in my town driving at 70MPH (automatic speed reduction on curves). No difference in performances between HW2.0, HW2.5, and HW3.0 that I've been using:

View attachment 556567


No difference on handling from the speed of 70 MPH on Northbound I-5 and exit to a 25 MPH at Tejon Supercharger. This is the function of Enhanced Autopilot with Navigation on Autopilot (Auto Exit) but it can still handle that well with all the Hardware I've tried when I manually override the autosteer (no Auto Exit, it becomes manual exit as if it's plain Autopilot) and the either do TACC with manual steering or re-engage Autopilot.

View attachment 556571


They all keep lane well on freeways and city streets.

They all do an excellent job with Enhance Autopilot or non-HW3 FSD functions such as Auto Lane Changes very competently both on Freeways and city roads.

HW3 FSD still has the faults of all previous software/hardware versions: They all can kill me if there's a stationary vehicle in front while the automation system is set at 70 MPH because they all won't brake or if they do, I wouldn't notice and I have to manually intervene.

Yes, HW3 FSD still has phantom brakes!

What about a car turning left in front of you? Does your car do like mine does and not react at first and then brakes even though the car turning left has cleared all lanes?

I am hoping the HW3.0 doesn't have this problem. I also wish you could do a HW3.0 upgrade only.

 

[Tam]

What about a car turning left in front of you? Does your car do like mine does and not react at first and then brakes even though the car turning left has cleared all lanes?

I am hoping the HW3.0 doesn't have this problem. I also wish you could do a HW3.0 upgrade only.

All my HW2.0, former 2.5, and newly 3.0 all brake when there's a car going the same direction in front turning left or right, or there's a car not going from the same direction but it's crossing from left or right and the system continues to reduce speed even when those cars are clear.

It's not behaving like a human. A driver would restore the speed or speed up when the obstacle in front is clear as result of turning or crossing left or right.

The algorithm needs to behave like human in this scenario.

I suspect that's because of the RADAR problem: It's programmed to be extra cautious and brake liberally rather than the opposite way which could cause a collision to stationary obstacles in some other scenarios.