WilliamG
Hinge Fanatic
It has an inferior frame rate. Not sure why you think it has a higher quality backup camera.
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It has an inferior frame rate. Not sure why you think it has a higher quality backup camera.
ElectricIAC
Good-Natured Rascal
Burger did not cost you $60k (CAD). If it did, you would demand it be exactly as advertised.
Atari2600
Active Member
Tesla should upgrade every last HW 2 and 2.5 system when they release their new HW 3 only code base so Tesla does not need to develop for two different code bases. I think it would be bad if automatic emergency braking becomes stagnant on the old platform yet becomes more reliable on the new one especially in cases where additional compute is the only way to make it safer.
The meeting Musk was talking at was for full self driving correct? When stating all cars have HW 3 perhaps he was speaking in the context of all cars that have FSD. I did not vote but if I did it would be a solid no as I have a different take, all should be upgraded for maximum safety.
The meeting Musk was talking at was for full self driving correct? When stating all cars have HW 3 perhaps he was speaking in the context of all cars that have FSD. I did not vote but if I did it would be a solid no as I have a different take, all should be upgraded for maximum safety.
Tam
Well-Known Member
I think there's plenty of power left in HW2 and HW2.5 to perform basic safety features and Autopilot, so safety is not the problem.
In theory, they only need 1 camera to do those jobs including the 2 Autopilot features:
1) TACC
2) Autosteer.
There's no need to process additional data from other cameras because there is not even an Autosteer.
Economically for Tesla, I agree that it's simpler to just write 1 code rather than 2 different ones for old and new hardware.
Atari2600
Active Member
First, I do not recall mentioning autopilot a single time.
Auto emergency braking could use some serious upgrades! I imagine it would use the windshield cameras and the forward looking side cameras to prepare possible braking for wildlife or other drivers or to alert of a pending collision. And use the rear and repeater cameras for backing up.
Second, a lot of people do not have FSD that actually do much more than the new cars my position is all units not just the ones based on what Elon stated. People with 2.0 and 2.5 installs.
Do you think Auto Lane Change, Autopark and Summon will be as safe on the pre HW 3 cars in the future for the EAP owners?
ElectricIAC
Good-Natured Rascal
I still hold that Tesla is intentionally kneecapping EAP to push FSD upgrades. They have a history of this behaviour.
Change my mind.
Change my mind.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Basic AP, and EAP, are feature complete.
No need to develop for 2 different code bases. Only FSD owners get future features.
ElectricIAC
Good-Natured Rascal
I say this as an FSD owner twice over now (Due to price arbitrage but nonetheless)
Promoting FSD shouldn’t mean that EAP gets left out in the cold with an inferior and out of date code base aside from new features. This already happened to AP1.
Promoting FSD shouldn’t mean that EAP gets left out in the cold with an inferior and out of date code base aside from new features. This already happened to AP1.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
...and will almost certainly happen again to EAP.
It makes very little sense for Tesla to keep indefinitely spending $ improving a code base they've already delivered all promised features on, doesn't run on the hardware they've been shipping for over a year, and haven't even sold the software for in well over a year.
This likelihood was one of the several reasons I dropped the 3k at car purchase time in 2018 for FSD.
Atari2600
Active Member
I don't think EAP and AEB is complete. It should not crash into stopped firetrucks or stopped traffic. Unless the Tesla can see the car in front of you actually slowing down and stopping it seems all bets are off and you might have to take control. Seems very unfinished to me.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
That's not a tesla issue- that's a "anything on the market using radar" issue.
Why Tesla's Autopilot Can't See a Stopped Firetruck
Not in the least.
You're ALWAYS supposed to be ready to take control.
EAP is a level 2 system that requires the driver to always be in charge.
There's never been any suggestion EAP would ever be better than L2.
If you want a shot at better, buy FSD.
Tam
Well-Known Member
First, I do not recall mentioning autopilot a single time.
That would make the requirement even more simple.
If you read the manual, Tesla Automatic Emergency Braking System does not guarantee that it can brake to avoid a collision.
That alone means human still need to be in charge of driving and braking and avoiding collisions.
That is the best possible capability it can do.
The manual says:
"Automatic Emergency Braking is designed to apply the brakes to reduce the severity of the impact."
Nowhere it says it can avoid an impact!
If you want it to avoid collisions, then you are talking about FSD when there's no human needed in the car anymore. Driver can sleep at home or busy at work and your car picks up rides and make money for you.
Current FSD cannot do that now because it's an ongoing development and it's not finished yet but that's the concept, the promise.
Pay cheap: no guarantee to brake to avoid collisions.
Pay more: A promise of Robotaxi with no human driver needed.
Atari2600
Active Member
Radar has a lot of noise but the vision system should be able to do that. The vision system can recognize parked/stopped cars. Heck it can even spot stationary trash cans, stop signs, traffic lights and cones.
I purchased FSD up front and already had the HW 3 retrofit so I have it all but I think of others and people's lives ruined due to auto accidents.
Let me be clearer. Whatever code is developed to allow FSD to see stopped firetrucks etc should also be in non FSD cars to allow the reduction of accidents. When the entire fleet has fewer accidents insurance will go down. I know what the manual says but I'm sure the people Tesla cars crash into didn't read it nor do they care. The press does not care about what the manual says either, so fewer accidents would also bring better press to Tesla. If FSD optioned Tesla cars in the future can avoid BASIC accidents and other cannot I also expect there to be more lawsuits.
I understand your point of view but I think human safety overrides that.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
If Tesla gets L5 FSD working then clearly that'll be safer than humans
Does that mean they're obligated to give it to everyone for free?
Of course not.
Hell for that matter ANY tesla is much safer than a 15 year old chevy- but Tesla isn't obligated to give folks that car for free either.
Likewise- Tesla is under no obligation to continue development of the 2.x codebase at all beyond this point- everyone who has it got every feature they were promised already.
And going forward HW3 code won't run on 2.5 anyway.
If you want more- you buy FSD and get HW3.
Now I WOULD expect the HW3 version of basic AP to get any safety updates that FSD folks get for things like spotting parked trucks- because there's basically no cost or effort involved in doing that- they're ALREADY developing that capability.
But EAP 2.x folks? You guys are about done- AP1 folks know what I'm talking about.
ElectricIAC
Good-Natured Rascal
If 2.5 then buy it right and add FSD if you feel the value is there.
If 2.0, keep in mind the cameras and radar are a little bit inferior so I can’t see adding FSD there.
If 2.0, keep in mind the cameras and radar are a little bit inferior so I can’t see adding FSD there.
Why? Just end the upgrades to the old cars and be done with it. Traditional manufacturers don’t update squat after you leave the lot. Why would Tesla upgrade 2.5 to 3.0 because of software development. Just like Apple. It’ll just cease to upgrade after X.X build.
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