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VanillaAir_UK

Supporting Member
Jun 17, 2019
7,969
5,463
Surrey, UK
Tesla NoA will change you into correct lane based on your route.

This is done in some of the EU.

This is called automatic lane changing, even though you may need to use the stalk and keep your hands on the wheel.

I don't understand what your point is. Maybe I'm mistaken but I've seen Tesla Driver do automatic lane changes using NoA in his videos.

FYI, worldwide doesn't mean every country.

In fact, Tesla driver does a route-based automatic lane change at 10:20 here (on the Autobahn):


No. NoA will not automatically change you into the correct lane based upon your route. It may suggest a lane change, but it is up to the driver to manually act upon that suggestion. If the driver does nothing, no automatic lane change takes place. Its semi-automatic at best.

Early AP cars and NoA enabled cars can do semi-automatic lane changes in some limited scenarios, but these must be instigated or confirmed by the user to trigger the turn signals and must complete within a very clearly defined operating envelope.

In the EU, the car cannot complete "Route-based automatic lane changing" without human intervention. Thus, it is not automatic, it is purely assisted/semi-automatic even though it does provide some assistance, such as by suggesting a suitable, or otherwise, lane change. AUTOMATIC | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary. Two human interventions are required. An active intervention to trigger the turn signals, and a passive interaction to maintain torque on the steering wheel. The lane change can then proceed automatically. Without those human interventions, the only thing that happens automatically is the cars visualisation recommends the lane change.

There is one scenario however that I will give you where the car can do a fully automatic route based 'lane change'. That scenario is when exiting at an offramp and the car without human intervention, can signal a left turn signal (we are RHD), albeit far too late, then automatically steer into the offramp lane. What it does after that is pure luck, as it would often wildly ping pong up the off ramp, trying, not always successfully, to keep the car within the bounds of the outer road markings. Thankfully, this seems to have improved in the last couple of months, although not to the point that I would try it with another vehicle around. So that imho does not fall into the category of 'Done' as it fails its QA. Plus its not really what you were referring to when you said "Route-based automatic lane changing"

FYI - Worldwide means "existing or happening in all parts of the world" - its not country specific. In fact, the limitations of the UN regulations are so wide spread, that they would be in effect across a significant part of the world. Quite possibly in more countries than not. WORLDWIDE | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

As for that TeslaDriver video. I think if you could see his hands, you will find that he will have had to intervene in that lane change otherwise it would not have happened. So not automatic.
 

powertoold

Active Member
Oct 10, 2014
2,475
4,772
USA
In the EU, the car cannot complete "Route-based automatic lane changing" without human intervention. Thus, it is not automatic, it is purely assisted/semi-automatic even though it does provide some assistance, such as by suggesting a suitable, or otherwise, lane change. AUTOMATIC | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary.

In driver assistance lingo, automatic lane change just means the car will steer and change lanes for you. You seem to equate automatic to "unconfirmed," which isn't true. Tesla has called it automatic lane change even before NoA was announced. This started with AP1.

So I'd like to collect my apology.

 

VanillaAir_UK

Supporting Member
Jun 17, 2019
7,969
5,463
Surrey, UK
In driver assistance lingo, automatic lane change just means the car will steer and change lanes for you. You seem to equate automatic to "unconfirmed," which isn't true. Tesla has called it automatic lane change even before NoA was announced. This started with AP1.

So I'd like to collect my apology.

Only if the other autonomous systems developers and rest of the transport industry use the same terminology for the same thing.

Note I am not disputing the automatic lane change, I am disputing the "Route-based automatic lane changing". Which is part of NoA functionality. If you wanted to go with the AP1 etc argument, you should have left out the "Route-based" bit from your list.
 
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VanillaAir_UK

Supporting Member
Jun 17, 2019
7,969
5,463
Surrey, UK
They don't look like the description of "Route-based automatic lane changing" to me. The feature that you said Tesla had deployed world wide, but at least two people have said is not a worldwide deployment as it requires manual intervention in Europe thus is not automatic. I am not disputing automatic lane change, I am disputing its deployment as part of a route aware solution, ie NoA.

Note I am not disputing the automatic lane change, I am disputing the "Route-based automatic lane changing". Which is part of NoA functionality. If you wanted to go with the AP1 etc argument, you should have left out the "Route-based" bit from your list.

Lets agree to disagree, which you have already done several times already.
 

VanillaAir_UK

Supporting Member
Jun 17, 2019
7,969
5,463
Surrey, UK
So just like using instructions from a sat nav then? I think most modern cars have that ability then, and those that also have auto lane change would then be at exactly the same level as NoA is in Europe and many other places.
 

powertoold

Active Member
Oct 10, 2014
2,475
4,772
USA
So just like using instructions from a sat nav then? I think most modern cars have that ability then, and those that also have auto lane change would then be at exactly the same level as NoA is in Europe and many other places.

No, route-based lane changes is more difficult than just sat nav. It requires lane awareness (how many lanes / which lane you're in / etc), when to exit, when an interchange is coming.

And no, most cars do not have route-based lane changing or awareness.
 
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S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,534
6,280
Snohomish, WA
Confirmed as we need to use the indicator stalk to instigate/confirm and have the car detect wheel torque. This is not the same as is available in the US unless you have unconfirmed lane change option turned off.

Do your cars need to detect wheel torque within 5 seconds of confirming the lane change with indicator stalk otherwise it will abort the manoeuvre? Delayed torque detection can result in the car aborting lane change mid manoeuvre as the car must complete its manoeuvre within a certain short period of time - you timeout, if you are lucky you get an onscreen message, if un lucky, the car suddenly veers back into the lane its just come from, irrespective of whether a following vehicle is about to fill that space.

This absolutely does happen in the US when you have unconfirmed lane changes turned on. Now I haven't timed it, but it will simply not do a unconfirmed lane change without a recent "presence detection".

I completely disagree with those that see it as still needing confirmation. It's not the same thing, and doesn't even require "presence detection" at exactly the moment the car notifies you of the lane change. If you apply constant torque to the steering wheel it will do unconfirmed lane changes without any nudging. It's a good way of knowing if your applying the right amount of torque consistently because you'll never get blue flashes of it waiting for a detection event.

Now I absolutely hate it because the experience can be completely different from one car to the next. When I had a Model S the torque sensor was way more sensitive, and with my Model 3 it requires more torque. Heck its pretty easy to accidently cancel Autopilot by applying too much. I can't wait till they replace it with a proper driver monitoring system.

As to Europe it doesn't make much sense to me to require both steering torque, and confirmation. I can understand requiring confirmation, but the act of doing that should register as a "presence detection" as well. Heck even changing the volume can be used to satisfy a nag.
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,534
6,280
Snohomish, WA
Automatic lane changing as in the car changes lanes for you. And even in the USA, the "unconfirmed" lane changes still require confirmation with wheel torque.

It doesn't really work that way, but I wish confirmed lane changes could be set to use additional steering torque in the correct direction as confirmation.

The way unconfirmed lane changes works is it checks to see if there was a recent torque detection, and if there was it goes through the lane change. So its still unconfirmed because you didn't specifically confirm it. If it doesn't have a recent torque detection then it will start flashing blue to get the drivers attention to apply torque before it will execute the lane change.

In practice this can be frustrating because unconfirmed lane changes is a bit broken in that it will take longer than expected to start. Heck sometimes it takes so long that the opportunity is gone by the time it has started. The need for a recent detection even also means that it could be waiting for you to apply torque to the steering wheel.

I'll probably just go back to confirmed lane changes because it's easier.

But, it would be great if I could confirm them with steering torque in the direction of the lane change. That way if there is ever confusion about the direction of the lane change it simply doesn't do it.
 
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powertoold

Active Member
Oct 10, 2014
2,475
4,772
USA
So its still unconfirmed because you didn't specifically confirm it. If it doesn't have a recent torque detection then it will start flashing blue to get the drivers attention to apply torque before it will execute the lane change.

This whole discussion with vanilla was regarding my wording "route-based automatic lane change." Vanilla threw a red herring with confirming or unconfirmed. Whether the car requires user initiated lane changing or not has nothing to do with the automatic nature of the lane change maneuver itself.

My point with the original post was to say Tesla has released route-based automatic lane changing worldwide (all its major distribution continents). I was aware of the EU limitations when I posted that.

And whether or not you "confirm" the lane change, the car will only change lanes when it's safe to do so.
 

HighZ

MDNT SLV M3
Apr 30, 2019
193
203
Rockford, IL
The way unconfirmed lane changes works is it checks to see if there was a recent torque detection

IMO, the auto lane change without confirmation requires torque at the moment that the software turns on the indicator, not just something recent. Once it sees that torque, you can remove your hand and it will make the lane change.

I usually drive with my right hand resting on the bottom of the steering wheel with my elbow on the center console. I never get a nag in that position.
 

qdeathstar

Completely Serious
May 17, 2019
3,173
2,206
VB
Yes the new FSD will be amazing but it has been done at the cost of downgrading the standard auto driving on every new car. I had a 2016 Model S for 4 years and its standard Autopilot had autopark, horizontal and vertical, lane change and garage parking none of which is on the new Model 3 without paying £6000 for them to switch it on. Other irritations like a tailgate that does not even lift the weight of the trunk and loss of remote closing from inside the car. So no wonder they have plenty cash for developing better FSD, they have stripped the rest of the car to the bone.

Hi. Breathe. Step back from the ledge.
 

EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
9,588
28,365
Seattle, WA
Yes the new FSD will be amazing but it has been done at the cost of downgrading the standard auto driving on every new car. I had a 2016 Model S for 4 years and its standard Autopilot had autopark, horizontal and vertical, lane change and garage parking none of which is on the new Model 3 without paying £6000 for them to switch it on. Other irritations like a tailgate that does not even lift the weight of the trunk and loss of remote closing from inside the car. So no wonder they have plenty cash for developing better FSD, they have stripped the rest of the car to the bone.
How much did you pay for the Model S in 2016 vs Model 3 now ?
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,534
6,280
Snohomish, WA
IMO, the auto lane change without confirmation requires torque at the moment that the software turns on the indicator, not just something recent. Once it sees that torque, you can remove your hand and it will make the lane change.

I usually drive with my right hand resting on the bottom of the steering wheel with my elbow on the center console. I never get a nag in that position.

The main point I was arguing is that we can't view the requirement to have steering torque as confirming the lane change.

The biggest reason why is people like yourself never get a nag, and you likely don't have any issues with the steering torque requirement interfering with the lane change behavior. It's essentially driver monitoring, and requires presence detection before making the lane change.

It's also a very different implementation than it would be if the torque sensor was used to confirm the lane change. If a designers goal was to use the torque sensor to confirm the lane change it would be implemented to purposely reject consistent torque in one direction. Where it actually required releasing it, and applying torque in the direction of the lane change.

It would also change lanes as quickly as confirmed lane changes.

Instead the unconfirmed lane changes have a weird pause that in my own experience is only occasionally caused by the torque sensor. The infrequency of it being caused by the torque sensor leads me to believe there is a rolling window of time that is accepted that's used to smooth the experience out. It's likely not a large amount of time (probably less than 10 seconds).

Now this isn't something I'm strongly opinioned on as I could easily be mistaken. With any observed behavior its easy to assume something is going on that isn't really going on when we're so disconnected from the data. It would also be more straight forwards to simply require a detection even after the indicator went on. The only reason you'd add a window of time is to smooth out the experience, and the only reason I think its there is the experience is smoother (at least with the torque sensor part of it).
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,534
6,280
Snohomish, WA
Yes the new FSD will be amazing but it has been done at the cost of downgrading the standard auto driving on every new car. I had a 2016 Model S for 4 years and its standard Autopilot had autopark, horizontal and vertical, lane change and garage parking none of which is on the new Model 3 without paying £6000 for them to switch it on. Other irritations like a tailgate that does not even lift the weight of the trunk and loss of remote closing from inside the car. So no wonder they have plenty cash for developing better FSD, they have stripped the rest of the car to the bone.

I thought the new 2021 Model 3 had a powered lift gate.

Anyways you can't compare features between those two cars because they are entirely different classes of vehicles.

Now you can compare autopilot features:

AP1 (what you have) didn't come standard with the car as it was a separate feature that cost $2500 (if I remember correctly). Where with a Model 3 the basic AP comes standard.

Now I'm a big fan of AP1 as I had a 2015 Model 3, and I loved how smooth TACC was with AP1. Where I find TACC with HW3 almost borderline unacceptable due to phantom braking. The tagline "to reduce phantom braking, only follow cars while using AP" is all anyone needs to know. :p

But, part of that smoothness really had to do with AP1 not doing nearly as much. So the smoothness is really the result of less safety. Now if I could switch off that safety to maximize smoothness I would immediately. But, other people might want that extra layer of safety.

Across the board AP1 simply did less with less safety.

AP1 did have auto-lane changes, but it couldn't see anything. Instead it relied on the ultrasonic sensors to detect a car next to it which didn't always happened. It also couldn't detect a car coming up next to it. So in this case I don't think one can compare AP1 auto-lane change to HW3 auto-lane change.

Autopark on both AP1, and HW3 can be compared and they both suck equally.

Autopark won't really work correctly until its vision based, and only HW3 can do that.
 

run-the-joules

Turgid Member
Aug 13, 2017
3,785
6,860
SF Bay
This absolutely does happen in the US when you have unconfirmed lane changes turned on. Now I haven't timed it, but it will simply not do a unconfirmed lane change without a recent "presence detection".

I completely disagree with those that see it as still needing confirmation. It's not the same thing, and doesn't even require "presence detection" at exactly the moment the car notifies you of the lane change. If you apply constant torque to the steering wheel it will do unconfirmed lane changes without any nudging. It's a good way of knowing if your applying the right amount of torque consistently because you'll never get blue flashes of it waiting for a detection event.

Now I absolutely hate it because the experience can be completely different from one car to the next. When I had a Model S the torque sensor was way more sensitive, and with my Model 3 it requires more torque. Heck its pretty easy to accidently cancel Autopilot by applying too much. I can't wait till they replace it with a proper driver monitoring system.

As to Europe it doesn't make much sense to me to require both steering torque, and confirmation. I can understand requiring confirmation, but the act of doing that should register as a "presence detection" as well. Heck even changing the volume can be used to satisfy a nag.


On the other hand (lol, no pun intended), one thing I've noticed is that when I need to increase the torque for it to be ok with changing lanes (which is frequent, because of how I rest my hands), it takes a SUBSTANTIALLY longer time between accepting that I've given enough torque and beginning the lane change than if I hit the turn signal and command a lane change (which isn't literally instant but near enough as to make it effectively so)
 

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