whitex
Well-Known Member
Summon a car across the continent, car kills someone, do you go to jail for involuntary manslaughter, or Elon, or the Tesla employee with the lowest performance evaluation?
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Musk tweets, traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts are in testing
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Then we're talking Level 5, and I guess Waymo would be in the same boat. I would assume Tesla would be liable. But I think that has to be reviewed on a case by case basis.
In 2016 Elon showed the world an actual video of Tesla testing FSD which included intersection navigation, merging, etc (their might have been a roundabout in there too) so according to Elon they've been testing it for over two years now, so nothing new in the tweet. Unless of course you believe he lied then and the video was fake, in which case what makes you think someone who would fake a video to lie about this wouldn't plain tweet a lie?
Can we please quit with the silly "what about the FSD video in 2016?" The video was real but it used software that Tesla had to drop. The video was a proof of concept combining modified Mobileye software with the AP2 hardware. Tesla released the video to demonstrate that the AP2 hardware was capable of FSD. But as you know, Tesla and Mobileye broke up and then later Tesla rebooted their autopilot development with Karpathy because their in-house approach was not working, and is taking a brand new approach now which does seem to be bearing fruit. So the video is completely obsolete at this point.
Kruegmeister
Member
Just because you read it on the internet doesn't make it true either...
No I'd say they exaggerated.
1) At Freeway speeds the Nag is ~ every 30 seconds.
2) Ignoring the System will put on Hazards and come to a stop.
3) Getting in front of a Tesla and Stopping will cause that Tesla to Stop
GM Supercruise & others are gonna do the exact same thing and the Police can stop them the same way. Get in Front and walk it to a Stop. Problem Solved.
Tam
Well-Known Member
Elon Musk said it's just like an automatic elevator. If something goes wrong, the property's owner insurance should cover it. However, if it's Tesla's fault, it would cover it.
It sounded he talked about the monetary issue and not about who goes to jail.
My guess is: If someone has to go to jail, it'll be a property's owner first. The owner will then have to shift the blame to Tesla. But it's a corporation so it can't walk or be transported to jail. It's just like the NRA that has never gone to jail no matter how bad things get out there in the U.S.
I don't know how they would have used mobileye except for tagging. Most likely they used the Nvidia API to drive, which they then discarded. That would make the demo extra fake.
Nvidia was showing demos of limited FSD in 2016 IIRC. I certainly assumed at the time of the switch to nvidia that Tesla was much further along than they actually were. Big bold lies are effective coming from someone how has a lot of impressive accomplishments.
I'm currently reading a history of the Korean war. MacArthur, Musk and Trump in many ways are very different people, but they share common approaches to accomplish their desires.
Don't get me wrong. I think it was a mistake for Tesla to release the FSD video. But I also think saying "Tesla's FSD is one big lie because of the video" is a very simplistic and erroneous position to take.
Tam
Well-Known Member
Yes, corporations should: Pinto gas tank fire that killed and GM ignition switch that killed but they calculated that it's cheaper to pay up the money when people die rather than fixing the problem before anyone dies.
Spontaneous firing without pulling a trigger of Remington 700 rifle linked to unintentional deaths an injuries. Remington didn't acknowledge despite of getting thousands of reports of the problem.
Well that they should be liable for! But again you shouldn't be in front of a gun when it's loaded. Always assume it will fire etc... Basic gun safety.
But: "But one night in 2011, the two boys, Zac and Justin, home alone, got into a fight. Zac, then 15, got his Remington 700."
Mistake 1.
People being reckless and stupid with dangerous things. But I can imagine situations when you are actually hunting and someone else runs in front at the heat of the moment and it goes off by itself when you did not intend to shoot. Car companies recall their cars if there's an airbag problem etc. Remnington should have done the same.
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Tam
Well-Known Member
What I am trying to say is: When someone goes to jail, it's unlikely that it'll be Tesla. Tesla can take care of the paying the money for you but a car's owner will very much likely to go to jail if a jail sentence is passed.
Tam
Well-Known Member
Drivers have been killing people very often (30,000 annual deaths). They do not go to jail. Usually, the worst would happen to drivers are to pay up for the fatal accident.
However, there are some rare instances that the court would send a driver to jail for a fatal car accident.
That should be the same when we'll have Self-Driving. We won't go to jail all the times. Just very rarely!
Right, but in this case by summoning, the initial action is always the same. So if something bad happens everyone who did this would get the same sentence (or nothing).
It would be extremely rare that this would happen. What are the odds that well after completed testing and far into "production" that a car just goes bananas and veers into a sidewalk and kills people? HW3 will have failover too supposedly.
Tam
Well-Known Member
Owners are different. Some read manual and some don't (Didn't Rex Tillerson just said that there is really someone who doesn't like to read, did he?)
What if the manual says that do not allow your self-driving car to operate in inclement weather especially in fog.
And guess what? Some owners would manually disable theirs in bad weather and some would let theirs roam around on the thick fog!
If there's a fatal accident, the court might find that the owner is egregiously and unrepentantly disregarding the machine's limitations and would send the owner to jail.
Agree, although contradictory by definition FSD will be rolled out incrementally. All I know is it will be an interesting journey over the next few years to see how far and how short from full FSD my car will get. Since my expectations are limited all I know is I will very much enjoy whatever is released. And to be sure not all will be good, Another certainty is the release of new camera/radar/sensor hardware that my car won't have that will limit how far along the FSD path my car can go but I'm ok with that. Just being realistic.
Are you referring to self driving cars without a steering wheel or the path Tesla is going down where for many years to come FSD will just extend the car's ability to drive itself but the driver has to be ready to take over and responsible?
These are two very different scenarios and get intertwined all too often in TMC threads which ends up with forum members chatting about different things without even realizing it.
whitex
Well-Known Member
And yet, it the guys car drove 7 miles while the police was figuring out what's up and them stopping it. Maybe the guy passed out with hand on the wheel. GM supercruise has camera monitored attention in addition to hands on the wheel. But I know, you say it didn't happen, fake news, witch hunt, etc, etc...
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