MX 0-60 Increases! (75D and 100D)

[number12]

@AnxietyRanger and @wallstguy

There is no free lunch. You want Tesla to announce huge huge huge changes coming in Jan 1 - 2019?
(Don't be dumb and buy now!)

And these huge changes will be locked in with no more improvements until Jan 1 - 2022.

I'm dumping all my shares on market open Monday because we all know SP is going to 0.

I know you are way smarter than this to know there is no winners for everyone or anyone. The consumer needs due diligence for key upgrades and be accepting the car they take delivery on won't be as good as next quarters. That's why we got Tesla's in the first place.

But we get butt hurt when our neighbor has a better car but we don't care that our car is better than another neighbors.

I GET it that people love to min/max. Get the best car for the cheapest price with the longest window of technological superior possible. The best of us gets that for 6 months maybe.

Another way to look at it is with how fast min-maxxers get destroyed it makes those who are not as good at the game feel better.

Due diligence?

My scheduled delivery was oct 15 2016..... I magically got pushed to sept 15 2016... missing AP2 by days (they stopped deliveries shortly after mine).

I called at least 20 people asking about AP2, joined this forum, etc. I said I had a second car and was in no rush.

I'm not sure how to do anymore due diligence. I was lied to multiple times and made me feel like they were doing me a favor by pushing me up when a good number of other people got discounts for moving up.

I accept what I have, but there's only so much DD you can do.

 

[dragonxt]

Missed it by a week...

On the bright side I know that even flooring it with 6 second 0-60 my range gets really reduced.

 

[Mike75d]

Source please?
I would like to bet against it, while hoping to be wrong. Win-win for me.
JB has come out telling about always looking to improve the converters as such significant gains are made there. If more efficient, same range with fewer cells. If more power, faster 0-60 with the same amount of cells.

Source please?
I would like

Source please?
I would like to bet against it, while hoping to be wrong. Win-win for me.
JB has come out telling about always looking to improve the converters as such significant gains are made there. If more efficient, same range with fewer cells. If more power, faster 0-60 with the same amount of cells.

No source, just an idea... I used the word 'may'. Fewer cells, less weight, same HP, faster 0-60. Interesting that they aren't quoting HP on the website anymore as this would tell if infact more power or less weight

 

[FlatSix911]

Tesla now uses one foot roll out in all models, so that means, that on non P models the 0-60 times are not comparable with previous times, which lacked the roll out.

A one foot roll out is the industry standard for performance measurement ... glad that Tesla is on board.

 

[Marcos]

To everyone arguing that Tesla's policy of rolling upgrades somehow harms its reputation with its owners, there's this.

According to Consumer Report's annual car buyer survey, 91% of Tesla owners would buy again. No one else even comes close. That number was 72% for BMW, and 69% percent for MB, with their annual or two-year refresh cycles. So, it turns out, most Tesla owners are fine with not having the latest and greatest because what they already have is amazing. Most people don't get resentful that someone else got the better car, because they know that they didn't buy that other car. They bought the car they own. And having a new version be a fraction of a second faster doesn't mean the car they had, and the acceleration they bragged about to all their friends, is now any slower.

I have an EARLY (like beta-tester 3-digit VIN era) Model X, and I get into my car every day and marvel at my incredible fortune in life that I could own one in the first place. Rather than cast the stink eye at the newest members of the Tesla-owning fraternity, I am happy that they get to share in the good fortune, no matter how many new bells and whistles their car might have. And as that Consumer Report shows, I'm happy to see that most Tesla owners are like me, unbothered by any "psychological" trauma of not having the best at the expense of progress. We're a happy, satisfied bunch, especially outside these forums.

 

[EinSV]

To everyone arguing that Tesla's policy of rolling upgrades somehow harms its reputation with its owners, there's this.

According to Consumer Report's annual car buyer survey, 91% of Tesla owners would buy again. No one else even comes close. That number was 72% for BMW, and 69% percent for MB, with their annual or two-year refresh cycles. So, it turns out, most Tesla owners are fine with not having the latest and greatest because what they already have is amazing. Most people don't get resentful that someone else got the better car, because they know that they didn't buy that other car. They bought the car they own. And having a new version be a fraction of a second faster doesn't mean the car they had, and the acceleration they bragged about to all their friends, is now any slower.

I have an EARLY (like beta-tester 3-digit VIN era) Model X, and I get into my car every day and marvel at my incredible fortune in life that I could own one in the first place. Rather than cast the stink eye at the newest members of the Tesla-owning fraternity, I am happy that they get to share in the good fortune, no matter how many new bells and whistles their car might have. And as that Consumer Report shows, I'm happy to see that most Tesla owners are like me, unbothered by any "psychological" trauma of not having the best at the expense of progress. We're a happy, satisfied bunch, especially outside these forums.

All Tesla owners benefit from Tesla's constant innovation, as our cars have capabilities that they would never have had if Tesla moved as slowly as traditional car companies. Rolling out new features as they are ready instead of sticking them on the shelf until the new model year rolls around is an important part of this equation.

In the long run, IMO Tesla will attract far more customers with this strategy than following the slower rollout demanded by the old school model year formula (even if it loses some customers who get upset when new Tesla rolls out new features or capabilities that their car doesn't have). Tesla's constant innovation is a major competitive advantage and Elon has made clear in the past that he has no intention of changing this policy. I wouldn't be surprised to see other companies start to copy this strategy. If they don't they will continue to fall further and further behind.

 

[smac]

In the long run, IMO Tesla will attract far more customers with this strategy than following the slower rollout demanded by the old school model year formula (even if it loses some customers who get upset when new Tesla rolls out new features or capabilities that their car doesn't have). Tesla's constant innovation is a major competitive advantage and Elon has made clear in the past that he has no intention of changing this policy. I wouldn't be surprised to see other companies start to copy this strategy. If they don't they will continue to fall further and further behind.

In fairness a big part of that is in the software side, and a side effect of the car being connected. For right or wrong Tesla have bought this stuff by bundling data contracts onto every car sold.

Will we see others do the same? Certainly looking round some of the hype about "connected cars" at the Geneva motor show I would say they are certainly considering it. Who will end up paying for this connectivity, the manufacturer or the end user, is less clear.

 

[EinSV]

In fairness a big part of that is in the software side, and a side effect of the car being connected. For right or wrong Tesla have bought this stuff by bundling data contracts onto every car sold.

Will we see others do the same? Certainly looking round some of the hype about "connected cars" at the Geneva motor show I would say they are certainly considering it. Who will end up paying for this connectivity, the manufacturer or the end user, is less clear.

I don't think it's any different with hardware than software, and in some areas they are interrelated.

For example, AP1 hardware was first made available in about November 2014. If Tesla was stuck with a traditional September cycle for introducing new models it may have missed the window for introducing it by a few months, which would have resulted on it missing out on 10 months of the software learning in the background. Another recent example is the 100D on the S and X. They were introduced in January and Tesla evidently faced some challenges ramping up production. If they had held off until this coming September to introduce the S100D and X100D, they would potentially be 7 or 8 months behind the learning curve, which could then impact their ability to continue to improve future products.

And this also would not be good for customers IMO. If Tesla followed a traditional model year approach, many customers who have these features would have missed out on them. I don't see the point of depriving customers of great new features or capabilities because existing owners might feel left out. And I am familiar with the experience -- I ordered a P90D a couple days before the P100D was announced, and received my AP1 car a couple weeks before AP2 was announced. But even though I missed out on the P100D and AP2, I was the beneficiary of earlier innovations like AP1 and ludicrous mode. Why should I expect innovation to stop (or slow down) with my car?

Now you can pick isolated examples like these and say Tesla could have worked around it by adjusting the new model cycle a few months here or there, but when you add up all of the changes that are made that would not work without slowing down the pace of innovation, and depriving new customers of features when they are ready to be introduced.

 

[vandacca]

There are a lot of OCD members on this forum (me included). The problem is that they're trying to stay at the top of the bleeding edge, which is difficult/expensive to do with Tesla right now.

Why is there this need for some to have the latest and greatest? For some, they love the bells and whistles, others want to compete with the neighbours. For me, whenever I see technology changing quickly, I try to get the latest and greatest so that my purchase will stay relevant longer.

With the iPhone, I felt compelled to upgrade every year because there were nagging issues and/or missing features that made my experience less than ideal. However, at some point (it was the iPhone 4S for me) all those nagging issues were finally resolved to my liking and then upgrading became less of an issue for me and I began to upgrade every 2-3 years.

I suspect that the same will happen for me with the Model-X. Perhaps if I got an AP2 vehicle, I would have been satisfied for quite a few years (probably over a decade) with my purchase and would not feel the need to upgrade. However, now that I have my X, I'm much more patient to wait for things to mature and decide to upgrade once everything is crystal clear. I'll wait to things cool down and progress begins to slow before I get a replacement.

 

[Pandamoanium]

There are a lot of OCD members on this forum (me included). The problem is that they're trying to stay at the top of the bleeding edge, which is difficult/expensive to do with Tesla right now.

Why is there this need for some to have the latest and greatest? For some, they love the bells and whistles, others want to compete with the neighbours. For me, whenever I see technology changing quickly, I try to get the latest and greatest so that my purchase will stay relevant longer.

With the iPhone, I felt compelled to upgrade every year because there were nagging issues and/or missing features that made my experience less than ideal. However, at some point (it was the iPhone 4S for me) all those nagging issues were finally resolved to my liking and then upgrading became less of an issue for me and I began to upgrade every 2-3 years.

I suspect that the same will happen for me with the Model-X. Perhaps if I got an AP2 vehicle, I would have been satisfied for quite a few years (probably over a decade) with my purchase and would not feel the need to upgrade. However, now that I have my X, I'm much more patient to wait for things to mature and decide to upgrade once everything is crystal clear. I'll wait to things cool down and progress begins to slow before I get a replacement.

By that time, a lot of other manufactures will be pushing their EVs out. It'll be nice to have more options too.

 

[dragonxt]

Good News!

I'm not saying this is completely true, but a friend of mine took delivery of a brand new S75 right before the new 0-60 time increases.

Today they went in to the Dublin Service Center to complain (Of course nothing would happen), but Service said there would be a performance software update at the end of August/Early September!

Speculation:
May not get me the full 4.7 seconds, but better than nothing for those of us who ordered very recently.

This update may also come with a slight up-charge, but I think the base Model X price went up 1k? Can someone confirm?

Of course everything mentioned above with there not being a software update is entirely possible, but let's not pretend we know everything and keep an open mind, your just making an educated guess.

Edit: The 6 seat interior is now $1,500 more! So that's where there is a price increase.

 

[Pilot Steve]

The insider says the Model 3 inverter will be capable of "over 300kW." Compare this to the inverters used in all-wheel-drive versions of the Model S and X—the front motor inverter rates at 250kW, the rear at 320kW.

"A main drive unit delivering over 300 kW combined with a similar dual motor as Tesla's current system delivering up to ~250kW could easily achieve supercar-like performance similar to the Model S," Lambert predicts.

Ready for my software update bring it on....

 

[SageBrush]

The insider says the Model 3 inverter will be capable of "over 300kW."

Hard to guess at the Model 3 mass, but 300kW in a 2000 Kg car means 1G at 15 m/s (33 mph) or 0.5G at 30 m/s (66 mph.)

Pretty good passing speed

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@vandacca is one reason why I believe Tesla's continuous changes is hurting their upgrades. Were there more clear-cut upgrade points, they'd have @vandacca already. I'm not basing this just on this post, but past conversations as well. In effect, the constant changes Osborned the second (AP2) Model X I believe he would have by now otherwise.

That said, I'm not the most worried about that here. Losing upgrades to constant waiting is one thing. I think the changes hurting loyalty through displeased buyers who feel their cars get outdated right after delivery is probably the worse group. If your policies make it impossible or unlikely for your customers to plan what they feel are satisfactory purchases, there is going to be some loyalty cost there.

These issues combined is why I feel Tesla has a loyalty-building problem with this policy. Their current policy is all about new customers no matter what levers need to be pulled. A better balance could be found IMO that could achieve both serving the new and old new customers...

There are a lot of OCD members on this forum (me included). The problem is that they're trying to stay at the top of the bleeding edge, which is difficult/expensive to do with Tesla right now.

Why is there this need for some to have the latest and greatest? For some, they love the bells and whistles, others want to compete with the neighbours. For me, whenever I see technology changing quickly, I try to get the latest and greatest so that my purchase will stay relevant longer.

With the iPhone, I felt compelled to upgrade every year because there were nagging issues and/or missing features that made my experience less than ideal. However, at some point (it was the iPhone 4S for me) all those nagging issues were finally resolved to my liking and then upgrading became less of an issue for me and I began to upgrade every 2-3 years.

I suspect that the same will happen for me with the Model-X. Perhaps if I got an AP2 vehicle, I would have been satisfied for quite a few years (probably over a decade) with my purchase and would not feel the need to upgrade. However, now that I have my X, I'm much more patient to wait for things to mature and decide to upgrade once everything is crystal clear. I'll wait to things cool down and progress begins to slow before I get a replacement.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Edit: The 6 seat interior is now $1,500 more! So that's where there is a price increase.

Yes, the increased the 6 seater price and also made the center console a no-price option - basically increasing the most the price for the no-console 6 seater...

 

[b team]

According to Consumer Report's annual car buyer survey, 91% of Tesla owners would buy again. No one else even comes close. That number was 72% for BMW, and 69% percent for MB, with their annual or two-year refresh cycles. So, it turns out, most Tesla owners are fine with not having the latest and greatest because what they already have is amazing.

Actually, it's the other way around: Tesla owners always get the latest and greatest at the moment they purchase. BMW, etc. purchasers get the latest and greatest only if they purchase immediately after a periodic upgrade. Anything else the manufacturer has come with since the last refresh is still sitting at headquarters, not being rolled out on the production line. Critics are contradicting themselves. They say they want the latest and greatest and that they also want all upgrades to be rolled out at the same time. Those goals are counter to one another.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Actually, it's the other way around: Tesla owners always get the latest and greatest at the moment they purchase. BMW, etc. purchasers get the latest and greatest only if they purchase immediately after a periodic upgrade. Anything else the manufacturer has come with since the last refresh is still sitting at headquarters, not being rolled out on the production line. Critics are contradicting themselves. They say they want the latest and greatest and that they also want all upgrades to be rolled out at the same time. Those goals are counter to one another.

When you say critics, you dismiss the concerns of this group of customers for their purchase. When you say the rest of what you say, you actually fail to see the concern itself. I doubt many of us express this concern to be critical of Tesla, but simply because they feel the policy is not fitting their preferences and leading, in some cases, to disappointments. They/us are making that concern heard. Calling it critics is not useful, IMO. It is a group of Tesla customers who'd prefer a different kind of offering from the company.

And having "the latest and the greatest" is just shorthand for explaining a certain type of buyer and their motivation - and separating that buyer group from, say, those who could not care less about the latest and greatest (e.g. those who buy an outgoing model on a deal and are super happy about it, that is a real group too). It does not mean it is to be taken literally as in wanting exactly what is being developed in some lab somewhere, that will never happen in commerical products anyway - there is always something not available yet.

The whole point of the proposal that some of us is making that this is an option many in the market prefer to have: "purchasers get the latest and greatest only if they purchase immediately after a periodic upgrade". That's a good thing in our view! It is a service to us that we prefer to have made available to us. This is why iPhone gets queues every autumn from people who already have iPhones. A lot of people prefer to have that clear upgrade point and, when it exists, it does increase purchases and loyalty. It is a positive cycle.

Mind you, I don't think we are even asking for annual upgrades only. I for one would be perfectly content with a 6-month interval (major changes by model year, smaller changes mid-model year) that for example the Audi uses, combined with an externally visible ~3 year facelift and ~6 year model renewal cycle. If something like that is not possible, I would even call going back to the way Model S P85D was introduced an improvement over the present day - that would have meant in 2016 combining Model S facelift/P100D/AP2 as one upgrade instead of three quarters, for example.

Having clear, distinct upgrade points - preferably combined with public understanding of the product roadmap/timeline (this is available for traditional cars) - allows planning of a major purchase. That is what we are voicing preference for.

You can say it is not important to you, fine. And Tesla can certainly (and do) decide it is not their preference, but there certainly is a group of customers who do prefer to have this option and for whom having this option is a service, because it allows for certain planning and peace of mind after a purchase decision that it was made at the right time for them.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Check out the Buyer's Guide on MacRumors:

iPhone, iPad, Mac Buyer's Guide: Know When to Buy

There is definitely a demand in the world in understanding when products are upgraded and timing your purchase according to those upgrades.

This is not some weird thing some critic Tesla owners are suddenly clamoring for.

With Tesla making changes every 1-2 months and delivery times for the cars being 2-6 months (or more), planning is much more difficult than, say, buying a product from the secretive - yet still much more predictable - Apple.

 

[b team]

Check out the Buyer's Guide on MacRumors:

iPhone, iPad, Mac Buyer's Guide: Know When to Buy

There is definitely a demand in the world in understanding when products are upgraded and timing your purchase according to those upgrades.

This is not some weird thing some critic Tesla owners are suddenly clamoring for.

With Tesla making changes every 1-2 months and delivery times for the cars being 2-6 months (or more), planning is much more difficult than, say, buying a product from the secretive - yet still much more predictable - Apple.

Yeah, I just don't see it as a legitimate concern.

 

[Laserbrain]

A one foot roll out is the industry standard for performance measurement ... glad that Tesla is on board.

I never heard of this industry standard beyond a drag strip. And why is Tesla using the 1ft roll out only for the most expensive models?

If it would be a real standard, they should use it for all of their models. Otherwise it is just a marketing scam.