My 2 day old P85D suddenly died in the middle of an intersection

[osama]

Definitely understand the reservations, and I wish you the best of luck. In any case, if Tesla won't play ball buying back your P85D (and from a business standpoint, I don't know why they would.... from a customer satisfaction standpoint, maybe...) I know someone in NJ who may take it off your hands and not hit you in the wallet too hard from driven-off-the-lot-instant-depreciation. Would have to work it out with him, but, he's offered to pay me full sticker price for mine already. lol.

Good luck either way. I hope to hear the end result.

I am certain Tesla will have no trouble selling the car to someone who can appreciate it (and possibly put up with it) more than my wife. If you order a P85D in Canada today you'll get it in Late March. I am sure there are a hundred people out there that want to skip the line.

I really wish I can change her mind. I tried and I made her read some of the posts in this threads. No amount of talking is going to change her mind. In her mind, a car that breaks down completely 134km after delivery is simply unreliable. She's done and she moved on.

 

[breser]

THIS problem has not been resolved... And getting stranded, car catastrophically failing IS scary and Tesla has not addressed it.

I'm quoting Scott here but he's far from the only person who's expressed this idea, specifically that Tesla is not addressing this problem.

First of all this type of comment presumes that this is a single issue. We know that there are multiple failures that can result in the same behavior. 12V battery dying, DC-to-DC converter, HV battery contactors, etc... So the fact that some people are having issues with similar outward behavior does not mean they are having the exact same failures.

Second it presumes that Tesla is doing nothing about any of these failures, which we have signs that this is simply not true. We've seen newer revisions of the HV pack, which based on postings here have had far fewer contactor failures. We've seen Tesla contacting owners wanting to proactively replace contactors in older vehicles (presumably because they had a higher failure rate than Tesla has deemed acceptable). And that's just what we know about when it comes to the contactor failures. I'm sure Tesla has done other things about other component failures.

Third it presumes that the resolution to the failures is that nobody will ever have such a failure again. All parts have a failure rate. It's useful to remember that all of these vehicles are made by human beings (or by machines made by human beings) and despite our marvelous ability to improve human beings are still not perfect. So no matter what Tesla does it's likely there will still be failures in components that can cause such failures. No amount of effort at checking the quality of the components can catch every component that may fail.

It ignores that the likely reason for the situation is the brittle design of the 12V battery holding the HV battery contractors closed is likely a reaction to the FMVSS No 305 (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard). That requires the HV power be isolated after an accident. Early Roadsters did not have this design but later Roadsters ended up having a similar design, implying to me that this is likely a design change driven by regulation. This design is brittle because you have multiple components that represent a single point of failure in the ability of the car to move itself. Fixing those single points of failure is somewhat in conflict with the safety standard, probably not cost effective, and given the failure rate of the components may not represent a significant reduction in such incidents.

None of this is to say that owners shouldn't be concerned by this. But we should at least recognize that Tesla is not ignoring such issues given the above evidence and have realistic expectations for what resolution means (i.e. resolution does not mean it never happens again).

 

[EarlyAdopter]

Great information from TrueDelta. I also wonder how many "fanboy" types either didn't fill out a CR survey or glossed over their issues. They sent the survey for my Model S and my Toyota Highlander Hybrid. Everywhere I indicated a fault or problem with Model S, no such fault or problem was indicated on the Highlander. Four year old Highlander, no issues. Not a one. Two year old Model S and I had to indicate two engine replacements and multiple other issues. In my humble opinion, Telsa is extremely lucky it has the good will it does from its owners.

TrueDelta claims 97,000 survey participants, Consumer Reports 1.1 million. I'm more inclined to trust Consumer Reports' data to not be skewed.

 

[idoco]

...We know that there are multiple failures that can result in the same behavior. 12V battery dying, DC-to-DC converter, HV battery contactors, etc... So the fact that some people are having issues with similar outward behavior does not mean they are having the exact same failures....

One way Tesla could get around this "single point of failure" would be to install an emergency manual contactor or manual switch in parallel with the normal contactor that switches the DC/DC converter. In an emergency situation one could use this switch to at least get the DC/DC converter turned on in order to power the 12V system and get the car into the shop. This wouldn't take care of a bad DC/DC converter but would deal with a dead battery or bad contactor issue.

I vaguely remember that one EV had this in the glove compartment in case of contactor failure. Can't remember the manufacturer.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

She's had diesel cars for the past 8 years (BMW X5 and an ML350). She fills up once every 2 weeks at a full service station near our house. Her last car, ML350, had a 1000km range with a full tank.

A full service station??? Wow, I didn't know those existed anymore (outside of NJ and OR, where you're not allowed to pump your own gas).

Well, enjoy lording over her every time she's running low on gas and has to go out of her way to go fill up every other week, while you plug in the convenience of your garage every night and wake to a full tank of electrons every day. 10 minutes every 2 weeks is over 4 hours a year spent at a gas station.

 

[osama]

A full service station??? Wow, I didn't know those existed anymore (outside of NJ and OR, where you're not allowed to pump your own gas).

Well, enjoy lording over her every time she's running low on gas and has to go out of her way to go fill up every other week, while you plug in the convenience of your garage every night and wake to a full tank of electrons every day. 10 minutes every 2 weeks is over 4 hours a year spent at a gas station.

Yup ... full service. One of the very few in town and happens to be 5 minutes from our house.

 

[davewill]

One way Tesla could get around this "single point of failure" would be to install an emergency manual contactor or manual switch in parallel with the normal contactor that switches the DC/DC converter. In an emergency situation one could use this switch to at least get the DC/DC converter turned on in order to power the 12V system and get the car into the shop. This wouldn't take care of a bad DC/DC converter but would deal with a dead battery or bad contactor issue.

I vaguely remember that one EV had this in the glove compartment in case of contactor failure. Can't remember the manufacturer.

And if the system is keeping the contactor open because it has detected a short or ground fault, you can have a spectacular fire! Or electrocute your passengers!

 

[markb1]

So it does. That's a peculiar removal, means you can't replace the 12V battery without powering the car via the nose cone terminals since you can't get to it without opening the frunk.

I think this is likely due to the removal of the second frunk latch. Before, you could pull the lever to release one latch, but the hood wouldn't fly up while driving because of the second latch. Now that there is only one latch, a lever that releases that latch would be a safety problem.

 

[dsm363]

I am certain Tesla will have no trouble selling the car to someone who can appreciate it (and possibly put up with it) more than my wife. If you order a P85D in Canada today you'll get it in Late March. I am sure there are a hundred people out there that want to skip the line.

I really wish I can change her mind. I tried and I made her read some of the posts in this threads. No amount of talking is going to change her mind. In her mind, a car that breaks down completely 134km after delivery is simply unreliable. She's done and she moved on.

You're making the right decision for you and your family and sorry the car had so much trouble so early on. You never know, maybe after some time with your car (hopefully trouble free) she'll see that her car was just one of the few ones that came off the line with issues.

 

[osama]

You're making the right decision for your and your family and sorry the car had so much trouble so early on. You never know, maybe after some time with your car (hopefully trouble free) she'll see that her car was just one of the few ones that come off the line with issues.

Thank you for your kind words. I am glad some of you understand the predicament I am in.
Off shopping to ICE dealers tomorrow. Yuck!

 

[Owner]

The big weakness here IMHO is how long it took to take to get the tow truck. I too got stuck waiting for a couple of hours. I wasn't cold but I was hungry. I definitely voiced my thoughts on that to Tesla (on my blog and directly), so I would hope that excessive wait times are rare.

 

[dennis]

^^ If this happened to me, I would feel exactly the same way. Tesla needs to get its act together because these problems have been ongoing for 2 years and Tesla should be utterly embarrassed. Where is the quality control, not just in-house but with the parts suppliers? I can tell you that if this happened to any of my friends, they would feel exactly the same way as Omar's wife. I cut Tesla zero slack in this department.

I've had two drive unit replacements and now my 2nd replacement is acting up. It pains me to say this, but this vehicle has too many ongoing quality issues that are not being resolved. Musk glosses over them during the quarterly conference calls. But nothing is really changing on this end of things. Tesla's reputation is going to suffer if these issues aren't addressed, and it doesn't seem like Tesla cares to address them.

It is reasonable to expect that Tesla will have more of these type of issues than an ICE manufacturer, and not because they don't care about quality control.

There is a large body of engineering know-how and experience with each of the subsystems that make up an ICE vehicle, like charging the 12V battery from an alternator. There is less know-how and limited experience in some subsystems for the Model S such as charging the battery with a DC-to-DC converter or an AWD system where there is no mechanical linkage between the axles. Even with the best engineering and quality processes, new issues will reveal themselves when there are thousands of examples on the road. So expecting comparable reliability at this stage of BEV development is unrealistic IMO.

I'm not saying that Tesla has a great quality process - I really don't know. But even if they do, we will see more Tesla failures and parts that need to be re-worked than an ICE because the technology is so new. But of course that is why many of us bought the car. :smile:

 

[AmpedUP]

This is a most distressing thread for me. I'm thinking this is the contactor in the main pack dying. Yes, the jury is out, but this is almost always what is involved in incidents like this. Every time I hear of this issue, I note the age of the car involved, and re-calculate my notion of the evolution of the car to date. After reading the recent thread about pre-emptive contactor replacements on older cars, I really thought the contactor issue was behind us for new cars...until now. I'm reminded of my father, who fell in love with the Corvair when it first came out in 1962, but read soon afterwards about pre-mature engine wear due to bad valve lifters, which could be heard tapping even in new cars. He decided to wait a couple of years to get the car, only to hear valve tapping in his new car as it was being driven off of the delivery truck. His two year wait still didn't help him at all. I feel as though I'm in the same boat with a car I have fallen in love with...the Model S.

 

[oneday]

Has Tesla indicated whether or not you will be getting a full refund for your vehicle? I would not think, on account of this alone, that this is grounds for a full refund. Yet, maybe they would do so purely for customer satisfaction. However, I don't see how they could sell a preowned vehicle for full retail.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

The 400 volt 85 KW battery that drives the motors.

What is the "Traction Pack"?

 

[idoco]

And if the system is keeping the contactor open because it has detected a short or ground fault, you can have a spectacular fire! Or electrocute your passengers!

If the parallel circuit is fused it shouldn't be a problem. If the DC/DC is shorted the bypass circuit will just blow a fuse and you are no worse off.

Not knowing the rating of the DC/DC converter, assuming 15V and 50 amps on the 12V side, with a 400V traction pack you are talking about a 20amp fuse. I've had 20-30 amp fuses blow for the DC/DC converter and water heater on another EV I own. Nothing dangerous or spectacular.

 

[breser]

The big weakness here IMHO is how long it took to take to get the tow truck. I too got stuck waiting for a couple of hours. I wasn't cold but I was hungry. I definitely voiced my thoughts on that to Tesla (on my blog and directly), so I would hope that excessive wait times are rare.

I understand how frustrating it is waiting when you're stranded, being delayed going about your business and in this case cold. But, from my experience with other vehicles and situations requiring tow trucks they don't typically come quickly. It's not like Tesla operates tow trucks. They either contract with tow trucks in a given area, contract with a company that has a contracts with companies all over, or call individual tow companies on a one off basis. Either way they probably have little control over how quickly the truck actually arrives. Often it's going to come down to how many calls the tow truck companies have in line ahead of you. Tesla doesn't have a fleet big enough to make it economical to have trucks dedicated to their calls and even if they did you still run the risk that those trucks are busy when your situation arises. So in all seriousness if the truck got there within an hour and a half (as the first post implies) I don't think that was a very bad response time.

 

[bluenation]

i repeat the condolences to osama and his family, i definitely would empathize with your wife. i think her reasoning is sound and i'd do the same, if i were her.

it's also admirable that you remain a EV and tesla fan. i think that's the difference between you (fan) and ppl who are slamming you here (fanboys). hopefully, we can stop victim-blaming and try to understand the problem/push tesla to fix this asap.

I have to say, although I'm as big a tesla fan boy as anyone, this is really unacceptable. At some point growing pains like this have to be OVER.

last year I had the exact same thing happen to me, with my 4 year old daughter in the back. It was sunny san diego and I was able to pull over no problem. I posted in the TM forum in the private section and I was absolutely eviscerated. People would have lynched me if they could. Same old tired arguments as people are putting in Tesla defense.

At this point I don't think there is any defense for Tesla and I hope they get their act together ASAP. Can't blame Osama for ditching the P85D (a beta version of a final car IMO) until they can demonstrate that electric cars are fundamentally more reliable than ICE (a Musk motto, but so far the data doesnt support this).

very sad to hear that. your thread about your trip was amazing, you seem to be an awesome tesla fan...shameful that ppl would go after you like that.

And I've had zero drivetrain problems in more than two years. Single reports are anecdotal. You're making it sound like this is happening to 50% of cars or something.

so in other words, your anecdotes trump osama's.

alrighty then.

You've never had a new car without some sort of build issue? Consider yourself lucky. Things break sometimes, that's why there's a thing called a "warranty."

- - - Updated - - -


No, it's not. There is absolutely zero evidence that temperature had anything to do with the OP's problems. Those who assume to the contrary are just spreading FUD throughout this thread.

yoyo's comments are absolutely logical and sound. why the snippy defensiveness?

Happens with ICE vehicles all the time. I know you're upset, but your reaction seems disproportionate here.

it would be nice if ppl would stop belittling OP's ordeal.

Will you try a BMW "experiment" now? What if that car stops working... Again I am very sorry this happened and a bit of frustration is understandable. But I have to believe this is a dramatic overreaction on all parts. If your wife doesn't want to drive the vehicle then you should be the one to drive it. Generalizing your situation to call it a failed "experiment" is ludicrous. There are many of us driving around with 20, 30, 40, or 50k miles plus that have never experienced a shut-down/failure. And most who have had one, have never had another. It's magical thinking to believe that simply changing vehicles will prevent an occurance of being stranded. I used to live in Alaska, when I did I always kept blankets, hand warmers, bunny boots, etc. in the vehicle (an ICE, BTW) just in case of these sorts of eventualities. Anyone living where it gets that cold should be prepared whether you drive a Mercedes or a Tesla.

1) because BMW is a 10 year old company with only one non-experimental model in their entire history, right?

2) BMW is world renown for performance, at the expense of (some) reliability. Many BMW fans readily admit this general fact. Do you want tesla's reliability to stoop so low?

Osama: i think you did the right thing. Please keep us posted on what tesla says/does. and good luck to your wife and her medical condition.

 

[svp6]

Thank you for your kind words. I am glad some of you understand the predicament I am in.
Off shopping to ICE dealers tomorrow. Yuck!

Sorry about your bad luck. However given your past cars I am sure you will find an ICE car that will soothe the pain. I hear the new MB S-coupe is a fabulous ride

 

[osama]

Sorry about your bad luck. However given your past cars I am sure you will find an ICE car that will soothe the pain. I hear the new MB S-coupe is a fabulous ride

I am keeping my car. My wife's P85D is going back. She wants an ICE SUV. We are going to look at the 2015 Porsche Cayenne S or Diesel.