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My 5-month review of driving a Model 3 that I have decided is not for me

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I've been a long-time contributor of openpilot, I've driven with the OSS stack across a Prius Prime and Rav 4 before switching to a Model 3 as I was curious what autonomy looked like on the other side of the pond.

Once the initial novelty wore off of all of the features and easter eggs, the actual day-to-day life didn't jive well with me. Autopilot is miles behind the quality of openpilot. Phantom braking, reliance on lane lines, weird driver monitoring (op uses a camera for attention tracking, wheel touch isn't required). The best way I can summarize Autopilot is very confident, especially when incorrect. I think there's a deeper uncanny valley when using the system compared to openpilot and even Toyota LTA. Less room for error and more just going with what the car is doing. It's hard to describe.

Never used FSD, even though I met the requirements last enrollment period. I think it's dumb to focus on the 5% use case when Autopilot/highway is the 95% use case and where you get most benefit, IMO. Autopilot feels abandoned and it could be so much better. But when you have a CEO who constantly lies to stock scam FSD and Robotaxi every year... kinda paints yourself into the corner.

My speakers and mic stop working when driving through a car wash sometimes, or during heavy rain. My left seat belt pillar just came off when getting in the car one day and it's made of this thin, paperboard like material that refuses to snap back in correctly. A/C often just blows at my feet when turning the car on, climate keeper is often not working due to a "system fault". The car has 10k miles.

I think the car is cool in some aspects. The acceleration is nice, it looks nice from an aesthetic level. Some people may like all the attention they get in public driving it "OOOH is that a TESLA?!", but as someone who dislikes Elon Musk, it kinda makes me feel like a tool.

The Chevy Bolt, at least the 2017 I had was more enjoyable in some ways. The seats sucked, until I modded them and added more foam. But the price was much lower, the acceleration was adequate, and the range was comparable. openpilot works on the bolt, although I never installed it. Never used supercruise. The interior is plastic everywhere and cheap feeling, but the car had some character to me. As an electric car, I miss it.

Tesla service is meh.. the advisors really seem to have an attitude, but so would I having to deal with rabid customers spamming forum links, self-diagnosing. I think the most irritating part is hearing of other customers getting free things like fixed repeater cameras that work for blind spot usage at night, then being quoted a cash price as "they don't offer that". Having them come to your house is cool, though.

I think, overall, Tesla should really, actually make a $30k model with decent range like the Bolt. The "luxury" segment isn't quite there due to quality issues and I can have better than Autopilot "self driving" for the cost of a used 2017 Prius, or Rav, or many other supported cars and openpilot, which is open source. I think FSD is dumb and feels like a stock scam at best, and I think that after several years of hardcore vehicle autonomy usage in general, it's made me a worse driver with slower reflexes (the same thing happens to pilots due to overreliance on aircraft autopilot).

Overall, there's a part of me that will be sad to see the Model 3 go tomorrow, but also a relief that one of the most unreliable cars I've driven will no longer be a $1,000 payment on credit. I just picked up a Jeep Gladiator and I'm loving it, even though I don't think there could be a car that could be more of a polar opposite.. even if the Jeep is only 600lbs heavier.

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I've been a long-time contributor of openpilot, I've driven with the OSS stack across a Prius Prime and Rav 4 before switching to a Model 3 as I was curious what autonomy looked like on the other side of the pond.

Once the initial novelty wore off of all of the features and easter eggs, the actual day-to-day life didn't jive well with me. Autopilot is miles behind the quality of openpilot. Phantom braking, reliance on lane lines, weird driver monitoring (op uses a camera for attention tracking, wheel touch isn't required). The best way I can summarize Autopilot is very confident, especially when incorrect. I think there's a deeper uncanny valley when using the system compared to openpilot and even Toyota LTA. Less room for error and more just going with what the car is doing. It's hard to describe.

Never used FSD, even though I met the requirements last enrollment period. I think it's dumb to focus on the 5% use case when Autopilot/highway is the 95% use case and where you get most benefit, IMO. Autopilot feels abandoned and it could be so much better. But when you have a CEO who constantly lies to stock scam FSD and Robotaxi every year... kinda paints yourself into the corner.

My speakers and mic stop working when driving through a car wash sometimes, or during heavy rain. My left seat belt pillar just came off when getting in the car one day and it's made of this thin, paperboard like material that refuses to snap back in correctly. A/C often just blows at my feet when turning the car on, climate keeper is often not working due to a "system fault". The car has 10k miles.

I think the car is cool in some aspects. The acceleration is nice, it looks nice from an aesthetic level. Some people may like all the attention they get in public driving it "OOOH is that a TESLA?!", but as someone who dislikes Elon Musk, it kinda makes me feel like a tool.

The Chevy Bolt, at least the 2017 I had was more enjoyable in some ways. The seats sucked, until I modded them and added more foam. But the price was much lower, the acceleration was adequate, and the range was comparable. openpilot works on the bolt, although I never installed it. Never used supercruise. The interior is plastic everywhere and cheap feeling, but the car had some character to me. As an electric car, I miss it.

Tesla service is meh.. the advisors really seem to have an attitude, but so would I having to deal with rabid customers spamming forum links, self-diagnosing. I think the most irritating part is hearing of other customers getting free things like fixed repeater cameras that work for blind spot usage at night, then being quoted a cash price as "they don't offer that". Having them come to your house is cool, though.

I think, overall, Tesla should really, actually make a $30k model with decent range like the Bolt. The "luxury" segment isn't quite there due to quality issues and I can have better than Autopilot "self driving" for the cost of a used 2017 Prius, or Rav, or many other supported cars and openpilot, which is open source. I think FSD is dumb and feels like a stock scam at best, and I think that after several years of hardcore vehicle autonomy usage in general, it's made me a worse driver with slower reflexes (the same thing happens to pilots due to overreliance on aircraft autopilot).

Overall, there's a part of me that will be sad to see the Model 3 go tomorrow, but also a relief that one of the most unreliable cars I've driven will no longer be a $1,000 payment on credit. I just picked up a Jeep Gladiator and I'm loving it, even though I don't think there could be a car that could be more of a polar opposite.. even if the Jeep is only 600lbs heavier.
Liked your review, my experience has been a fair bit different, mainly from a quality POV. Additionally, from a OPEX POV that Gladiator will definitely cost you quite a bit more, but man do they look cool! Enjoy the new ride.

And BTW we have orders in for the new Chevy Blazer EV & the Kia EV6.

The Model 3P that we have has treated us well, overall, but I have gotten over the 'neatness' of it and, lately, Elon has been a thorn in my side (like, come on man, just STFU and stick to changing the world through your actions NOT your words).
 
Just for the sake of clarity it appears to me from the OPs other posts that the car they had with these issues was a 2018 model 3 that they purchased from carmax sometime in the beginning of March of this year.


OP were you ever successful in getting this Open pilot software running on the tesla like you mentioned you were going to do?
 
Never had any of the issues that you described which are not related to the reliability of the car.

Also, it is silly to decide which car to buy and drive depends on the CEO's political views.
Agreed, I'm no fan of Elon Musk for many reasons that I won't go into, but I have to hand it to him: He created a successful, and totally different kind of car maker. He's probably the biggest single innovator in the car business since Henry Ford. Of course, Ford was a ***** too.
 
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>> I've been a long-time contributor of openpilot.

@zorrobyte are you a developper, a reviewer, or both...?​
>> Autopilot is miles behind the quality of openpilot.

It would be interesting to compare feature by feature OpenPilot and Tesla AutoPilot.​
Can you show some pictures or videos? Your comments seem just like a rant, not a constructive review, IMO.​
In my case, I cannot compare FSD to any other system because I only drove cars with radar cruise control and no steering vision-based control.​
I only saw recently the Sandy Munro, but I cannot say that those videos were very instructive:​
(Note: the first review made by a staff engineer was very honest but was deleted and was replaced by a mundane review)​
(Idem, looks like a TV advertisement)​
>> Phantom braking

I never experienced it. I only noticed that Autopilot slow down the car when passing a green light, or passing close to pedestrians or bicycles.​
So I keep my feet above the accelerator to accelerate if I feel this is safe and helpful.​

>> reliance on lane lines

The steering cannot be engaged when there is no noticeable side marking, but posted speed still work.​
How does openpilot can control the car in this case, does it use GPS lane mapping?​

>> weird driver monitoring (op uses a camera for attention tracking, wheel touch isn't required).

I agree, I keep my hands all the time on the steering wheel, but still I get this flashing blue warning?​

>> The best way I can summarize Autopilot is very confident, especially when incorrect.
>> I think there's a deeper uncanny valley when using the system compared to openpilot and even Toyota LTA.
>> Less room for error and more just going with what the car is doing. It's hard to describe.

It would be interesting to compare some videos of similar driving situations.​
Tesla FSD is not perfect, I wish for example that the car moves away on the left from the center of a lane,​
when passing a big truck, as I find been too close a truck, compared to what I would do if I was driving.​

>> ...but also a relief that one of the most unreliable cars I've driven.

I have a 2018 M3 LR and the only time I went to the Tesla Service center was to get the FSD 3.0 CPU update.​
I like the HVAC, I used in winter and summer with no complaint, except may be the noise when above the 5 setting.​
Doesn’t the Bolt had big batteries issues....​

>> Never used FSD, even though I met the requirements last enrollment period.

I also don't have the FSD Beta. (I get penalized by someone cutting me off, and I cannot get my score adjusted, kind of dumb scoring...)​

>> Autopilot feels abandoned and it could be so much better.

I just drove last week back and forth from San Francisco to Vancouver, BC so about 2,000 miles using FSD all the time.​
Even after a full day of driving, I was not tired, and felt like I have been spending my day using a car racing game on my computer.​
My favorite feature is certainly the auto-change lane, as this relax from constantly looking at the rear and side mirrors​
when passing and merging back, but I use the manual control to choose when I need it, instead of having the system​
constantly starting to change lane unless you cancel it.​
Driving at night with FSD is also of a great help, as the car don't have any problem staying in its lane even when other cars​
are coming toward you, and I have to squint my eyes because of the other cars highlight blocking my view.​
Overall, I cannot say that FSD is perfect, and it takes time to get used to, but it is very relaxing to use it when doing a long trip.​
However on curvy roads, and I prefer controlling the speed with the accelerator or the right button on the steering wheel,​
to slow down before entering a curve and accelerating when I can see the end of the curve.​
>> The Chevy Bolt, at least the 2017 I had was more enjoyable in some ways.

The Bolt curb-to-curb turning radius is certainly nicer than the Model 3,​
but the basic front Macpherson and rear torsion beam suspension... well may be not so enjoyable!!!​

>> openpilot works on the bolt, although I never installed it. Never used supercruise.

Looking at some recent FSD videos, I would be curious to see how openpilot handle unprotected left turns.​



 
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OP were you ever successful in getting this Open pilot software running on the tesla like you mentioned you were going to do?
BogGyver will have OP specific hardware available for the HW2+ available in about two weeks! I'm bummed out I'm going to miss it.
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> Agreed, I'm no fan of Elon Musk for many reasons that I won't go into, but I have to hand it to him: He created a successful, and totally different kind of car maker. He's probably the biggest single innovator in the car business since Henry Ford. Of course Ford was a bastard too.
>Also, it is silly to decide which car to buy and drive depends on the CEO's political views.

I get that, I have a starlink, too as I'm planning on being on the road in my RV by winter! I forgot to mention I can't flat tow the Model 3, so it was one of the reasons I went with a Jeep.

I do think that there really isn't another company where the CEO's views and personality are associated with their products so strongly as Musk's companies. Fords don't get keyed due to Ford being a d*ck, nor did Westinghouse or Edison that I'm aware of. I debadged my Model 3 and put a Skoda badge on it, half as a joke, half as I was kinda embarrassed to be associated. People still knew it was a Tesla from a mile away :p

Teslas have a special way of virtue signaling that other cars don't have in my opinion. Many associate it with the Iron Man/Tony Stark like image of Musk, but many don't as the man is so polarizing.

>I’d be curious if OPs experience would have been different in a newer model year.

Heat pump and incremental improvements, possibly! I did pick up a 2019 LR AWD with FSD and 10k miles for $49k a few months ago! KBB is $58k now, which is insane.

>are you a developper, a reviewer, or both...?

I've worked on several OP projects over the years, built and released a steering angle sensor under OSS. I have deep experience with vehicle controls engineering, PID, MPC, LQR and other controls methods. I'm also part of a community of people who convert old cars with autonomy, one of our cooler projects is a 80's VW Vangoon.

>It would be interesting to compare feature by feature OpenPilot and Tesla AutoPilot.
Can you show some pictures or videos? Your comments seem just like a rant, not a constructive review, IMO.

Sure, here's a converted Smart Roadster compared to Autopilot

Here's another, older video

>Looking at some recent FSD videos, I would be curious to see how openpilot handle unprotected left turns.

openpilot doesn't do FSD like features at the moment. There is human-assisted automatic lane changes, but the goals are different. openpilot, as of now, is like Autopilot, not FSD. I've never used FSD, as like you, Safety Scoring is irritating and unreliable.

My sentiments are around L2 autonomy when it comes to lane keep and longitudinal control. I've never had to keep my foot over the accelerator with openpilot and while AP's long isn't absolutely terrible or anything, it is noticeable in comparison, coming from a system you know intimately well for a few years. Some of my experiences with "phantom braking" can be reduced to a car coming into my lane, or across lanes and the car braking heavily for what seems too soon, and too voliently. Some may internalize that as just normal long operation, but coming from a system with better longitudinal planning, it just feels unrefined.

Edge cases, like the car picking up blue parking lot lights and thinking it's an emergency vehicle on the interstate is awkward, too. I think that's really the theme of the day when it comes to AP, edge cases and the vehicle suddenly making abrupt manuevers. The issue is that the car is very confident and can sometimes make sudden erratic behaviors, like exit diving, or lane line changes where the steering angle suddenly dives to "re-center" in the lane.

OP does things differently, they just removed the option for lane-based lateral control and have laneless only. The car can drive on country roads, gravel roads, roads with unmarked or snow-covered sections. The car doesn't suddenly jerk when lane lines widen or narrow.

My overall sentiment is that it feels like Autopilot is abandonware. and while FSD may make the headlines, it feels foolish to me to abandon AP when decent highway is the 90% use case in my opinion. Everyone says wait for single stack and so on, but it's really hard to when you know there's open source software out there that does better, and has for quite a while now.

>Your comments seem just like a rant, not a constructive review, IMO.
My opinions are of my own and much of it is a rant, peppered with some constructive feedback. I was just surprised AP was so bad, not that it's unusable, and auto lane change and Nav on OP is cool. it's just frustrating as things like Driver Monitoring feels backward, cabin based cameras for driver attention monitoring should have been a thing since AP was released.. OP has had it since the start and doesn't require wheel touch.

I'm really just splitting hairs when it comes down to it. AP is usable and works well enough. I've never had any issues with the drivetrain or the car starting or anything. Interior build quality is... weird, at least on my 2019. AP could be better and feels behind when compared to another system. I've never actually got my car keyed.

I just think, for me, it just isn't there for a $50-60,000 car. The Bolt is fine as an electric car (now that they fixed the batteries), and Autopilot like autonomy can be added to a whole slew of cars for around $2k if you don't want to DIY. A Prius Prime with openpilot is a very capable car, indeed, or a Rav 4 Prime if you want AWD without the waiting list or cost. I bought my Bolt for $17k, 200+ miles of range and AP like autonomy for $600 as I can DIY. Also, if I don't like something openpilot is doing.. I just do a git pull, edit, and push. Besides the point, though.

Maybe FSD will eventually be the bee's knees and Tesla will crush it whenever they go single stack and I really regret selling the car. But much like false FCWs that tank safety scores and a CEO that promises FSD is "next year" every year; it's not something I think is worth a $1k car payment or $200 a month FSD sub to find out. Not when others have caught up and I can DIY a used Bolt or Corolla to do many of the same things for under $20k. And well, while even Tesla's parts store and right-to-repair is finally rolling out along with repair manuals and diagnostic tools these days, it's just comforting to know I can work on my own car and not have things like Supercharging disabled remotely.
 
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I'm not an owner, but I do have a M3 RWD on order. I did rent a M3 twice on Turo to do a few extended test drives. Most of my driving I don't really need AP but I did about 200 miles on the highways around Houston and used AP for most of that. I had one instance of phantom braking when I think the car interpreted a shadow line across the highway as an object and slowed. Quite surprising, the car slowed maybe 10 mph, but I had my hands on the wheel and over the accelerator and I managed it without a problem and now I know what phantom braking is. I have to say it is not exactly confidence inspiring. Happy no one was tailgating me. Also one of the cars I rented had a recently cracked windshield. It caused a distortion on the passenger side. That car tracked to the right side of the lane while using AP. Not sure if that was because of the cracked windshield or not, but it was really annoying. I didn't try to recalibrate the cameras (it wasn't my car). The other M3 I rented didn't have that problem. I think Tesla is way too obsessed with FSD. I have never consider buying it, even at a much lower price. The way they have sold this vaporware to customers with lots of promises that never came true is dishonest. Many people bought and sold a car with FSD that never got to use it. As a technical challenge it is interesting to see the development of an AI system that can drive a car. But driving is so much more complicated than it seems, so many edge cases as it was pointed out. Humans can do this easily, AI not yet.

This aside I still want to dive into an EV on my next car. Worst case I keep it for a year or two and buy something else. I think Tesla has been a huge catalyst for change not only in the car market but also in the space industry and spaced-based internet access and solar. I think it is time Tesla looks to hire a CEO like Herbert Diess. Someone that can take the Tech Company and make them a Car Company. Thier customer service seems to be horrible, the same experience I've had with Tesla Energy. Someone who will put some priority on spare parts and car support. Quality issues., etc. I think VW made a mistake firing Diess and Tesla has a chance to snatch him up. If Tesla wants to sell 10 Millions cars a year one day they need someone who can get them there. Once the 'fan boy' market is saturated, they will need millions of people each year to buy their products and people will not put up with such issues when much more dependable car companies get more into EVs. It will take Tesla years to make this cultural change and Musk doesn't make it a priority. He talks about it, but he doesn't do it. Musk is more of a creative type, not the best car company CEO. You need creative types but need to know when focus needs to shift. He should stick with big picture ideas, the day-to-day operations need a car guy.
 
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I’ve owned a 2018 Performance 3 for almost 4 years now, and my experiences couldn’t be more polar opposite than what’s written here. I’ve had them all: Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Infiniti, Land Rover, Lexus… you name it. This is the best car I’ve ever owned in so many ways, from performance and handling, to durability (through 65,000 miles), to awesome features and updating, to all around excellent driver experience. Hey, to each his own. But my next car will be a Tesla, hands down.
 
I don't think anyone can disagree that promising FSD for years and not delivering is bad. The products he has delivered have been game changing though. It's a used Tesla, so the audio cutting out and the b pillar trim could be a result of poor ownership or build quality. There's no way to know.

Kinda lost me at the parts about loving the chevy bolt, self-hatred from buying Elon's car, re-badging with a Skoda badge, and ending up with a Jeep Gladiator. The Jeep is great though, especially for any kind of off roading/camping.
 
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My M3P isn't remotely close to being bad like the horror stories but it's still the worst put together car I have have ever owned. That said there are some aspects of it that I quite like as some of the simplified controls are brilliant and the voice controls seem to be better than other cars I have driven. Being used to firmly damped M-cars I actually find the ride pretty good and the handling is sporty and totally adequate for a street driven car. I still feel like it needs a HUD at the very least as I find myself speeding too much with a speedometer out of my sightline but that's a personal thing as is my disdain for the rudimentary audio interface/media compatibility which I feel is at odds with the rest of the tech in the car. There is a lot of good here and it's just a matter of execution keeping the car from being something that I could strongly recommend. The car just feels a little unfinished like it's still in prototype stage and my problem with the company is that it's all money driven right now with little regard for improving the quality of the product. I feel like in 10 years we will still be discussing more or less the same things as we are today in that the car does a lot of things great but the quality isn't good as it should be for money and by then there will be a lot of alternatives that will be probably more attractive. I'm not going to sidetrack things with my opinion on FSD which I believe is outright thievery for a product that's barely passable and inferior to what some other automakers are offering without a massive fee.
 
I think the OP makes a lot of valid points. It just depends what you value in a vehicle. AP is fine for what it does which is make highway driving easier and safer. FSD for me was a total waste of money and I am glad I got it included on a used car rather than shelling out thousands of dollars for it a la carte. Build quality was reasonably good and service, in my experience, was always pretty solid... though it seemed to be getting a lot less responsive as more Tesla got on the road locally and a lot of people did seem to get brand new cars with inexcusable defects that should have been caught before delivery.

In a lot of ways I viewed my P3D as a $30k car with the powertrain of a $100k car in it. The three things I care about most in my car are performance, looks, and stereo. The P3D performance is absolutely insane (literally supercar performance in a family sedan), it is a good looking car, and it came with a solid factory stereo with nice integration of Spotify and other apps. So in that regard the P3D was very well suited to what I value in a car. That said, a $25k Chevy Bolt would do everything I need it to do for half the price and wireless apple car play would offset most of Teslas OS advantage. If I didn't care about my car hauling ass and looking sweet I would get the Bolt over the Tesla without question so I can see why the OP would do that.

I do think that there really isn't another company where the CEO's views and personality are associated with their products so strongly as Musk's companies. Fords don't get keyed due to Ford being a d*ck, nor did Westinghouse or Edison that I'm aware of. I debadged my Model 3 and put a Skoda badge on it, half as a joke, half as I was kinda embarrassed to be associated. People still knew it was a Tesla from a mile away :p

Teslas have a special way of virtue signaling that other cars don't have in my opinion. Many associate it with the Iron Man/Tony Stark like image of Musk, but many don't as the man is so polarizing.

Is this a real thing where people mess with Teslas specifically or is it just because Tesla owners are skewed towards certain personalities and tend to have a web presence so it seems that way?

I am gonna be honest, I had mine for 2.5 years in one of the most "conservative" cities in the country (Virginia Beach) and in my daily interactions I got nothing but questions and compliments about my car. Maybe different parts of the country are different but I had no issues here. Maybe it is the lefties keying the cars since Elon said he'll vote Republican now?? I dunno...


The only thing that bothered me was that everyone thought I was rich and that my car cost over $100k when I got it used for $45k and it cost about the same as their pickup trucks.
 
(moderator note)

Discussions on autopilot / FSD et al go in the subforum that is dedicated to that discussion, which is here:


I am requesting that either discussion stay focused on the model 3 review, or that the thread gets moved to the subforum above if the discussion is to be about autopilot and competitors.

Note, before its pointed out to me by someone, I realize that I asked an open pilot question in this thread so this message is also directed at myself.
 
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Well if I made this post the MOD would have put this in a black hole.
Now if I say I am getting a hellcat or lambo, I guess most of us would say,
what the heck, not a bad car. A jeep, where bolts seem to jump around like
puppets, what are you thinking. There are few cars with the performance of the
3. If you like the smell of gas, well go for it. Really no need to jump on the Tesla
forum and say its not what I wanted unless you work for Jeep. You may not
know it buts just a car. Happy jeep forum to you. Eggs away.
When jeep has an electric, we will be driving on Mars.
 
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