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My CPO (and disappointments) Experience

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Based on Cyclone's experience though I certainly would never consider buying a CPO car sight unseen.

If you buy from out of state, you can always fly there, inspect the car, buy it and have a nice road trip back home :)
That was my original plan, but then I can'tell use a body's hop I know ... still I can'tell see me turning up the opportunity to get an MS - so I'll have to figure something out.
 
That was my original plan, but then I can'tell use a body's hop I know ... still I can'tell see me turning up the opportunity to get an MS - so I'll have to figure something out.

This is easy to solve. Wherever Tesla sells cars, there will surely be a high end body shop that works on higher end cars. You can always call a Mercedes r Porsche dealer in the area and ask what body shop they recommend.

I would pull up reviews for some of those body shops and call a couple of nearby ones about a "Pre Purchase Inspection" for a used car. This is a common service every body shop offers. It will cost $100-$200 and they will examine the paint all around your car and check for any potential repairs that might not have been done properly. They will also put the car up on a lift and inspect everything for you as well.

IMHO it is silly to buy a used car costing ~$60K or more without this very important crucial step of due diligence that takes all but 30 minutes.

In addition to that I would also pull up the CarFax and examine that. Lastly demand Tesla for the car's service records and maintenance history because it is silly to buy a used car without knowing the history of the car.
 
In addition to that I would also pull up the CarFax and examine that. Lastly demand Tesla for the car's service records and maintenance history because it is silly to buy a used car without knowing the history of the car.
Carfax is not the magic panacea. I bought a CPO'ed Porsche that probably shouldn't have been CPO'ed. It had Type 2 overrevs (ie, a blown downshift) and undisclosed repaired accident damage (probably as a result of said blown downshift). The Carfax was pristine.

In hindsight, I should have asked to see the overrev info in the ECU and had a PPI, but I assumed a CPO is flawless, right? But I don't worry about it. I've put a few hundred hours on the engine (it's fine), and the car is awesome, so I overlook the quirks.
 
The closest thing to the Porsche situation is that my drive unit was replaced. The car is significantly quieter as a result. Then again, I've only put 110 miles on it since it came back from the body shop two weeks ago. Got an ICE back in the garage now and the Tesla is collecting dust. Hard to drive an ICE again, but after the first 1,500 miles or so, I've gotten used to it.
 
Cyclone. So sorry about your situation. I am thankful for your post. I was so close to pulling the trigger on a cpo p85+. The price was unbelievable and turns out there's a reason. The car had one accident and one additional repair that was not reported on carfax. Initially I thought that since tesla is certifying it everything should be back to factory spec and so I shouldn't worry too much about it. After your post unthinkingly wait a bit.
 
Cyclone. So sorry about your situation. I am thankful for your post. I was so close to pulling the trigger on a cpo p85+. The price was unbelievable and turns out there's a reason. The car had one accident and one additional repair that was not reported on carfax. Initially I thought that since tesla is certifying it everything should be back to factory spec and so I shouldn't worry too much about it. After your post unthinkingly wait a bit.
Care to share the VIN so others stay away from it?
 
Carfax is not the magic panacea. I bought a CPO'ed Porsche that probably shouldn't have been CPO'ed. It had Type 2 overrevs (ie, a blown downshift) and undisclosed repaired accident damage (probably as a result of said blown downshift). The Carfax was pristine.

In hindsight, I should have asked to see the overrev info in the ECU and had a PPI, but I assumed a CPO is flawless, right? But I don't worry about it. I've put a few hundred hours on the engine (it's fine), and the car is awesome, so I overlook the quirks.

I agree but no one said Carfax is a magic panacea. I made it clear that before you buy any used car pulling up the CarFax should be a part of the basic due diligence. It will tell you when the car went into service so if you are buying a 2014 car it would be good to know if it is a January 2014 car or a December 2014 car. It will also let you know how many owners the car has had and if the car was bought brand new from the factory or as an inventory car. It will also shed some light on insurance reported accident damage.

Anyone buying a used car should augment the CarFax with a thorough pre purchase inspection at a reputable high end body shop. A body shop PPI would have likely revealed the accident damage that was repaired.

- - - Updated - - -

Cyclone. So sorry about your situation. I am thankful for your post. I was so close to pulling the trigger on a cpo p85+. The price was unbelievable and turns out there's a reason. The car had one accident and one additional repair that was not reported on carfax. Initially I thought that since tesla is certifying it everything should be back to factory spec and so I shouldn't worry too much about it. After your post unthinkingly wait a bit.

All the more reason why it is not a good idea to buy one of these CPO cars sight unseen. Always do a through PPI at a body shop after reviewing the CarFax. Did Tesla disclose the accident damage to you? Now that they know about the accident damage for sure will the be disclosing this information to someone else looking to buy the car?
 
Carfax is not the magic panacea. I bought a CPO'ed Porsche that probably shouldn't have been CPO'ed. It had Type 2 overrevs

It is, for some sellers. Clean = "It's had no Accidents", I heard. Really? These days, a clean Carfax is where the problems can start. A signature Tesla, that cost its owner the $20k (or was it 40k?) premium, is not a car you make an insurance claim on. It doesn't work that way for cars costing this much, or ones seeing the track (where the assumptions get much worse). If carfax can devalue it $20k-30k, than that is the out-of-pocket budget an owner will pay to keep that piece of paper clean.

RE: Porsche. Type 1 & 2s are the ones I understood do not cause damage. When I sold (personal sale), we took a snapshot of the "P-wiz" output, showing no over-revs. When I bought that CPO, the dealer I flew to had already sent me the over-rev report and I'd already researched and was ok with why the engine was out of the car (common rear main seal, per Carfax). Nothing hidden. No surprises. Having introduced many people to the track, on and off for the past 20 years, I was answering more questions about Tesla to a guy picking up wheels, just yesterday. Where I'm (constructively?) critical on TMC, I've only recently started to give both pro, and con, to people away from Tesla.
 
Not sure where to stick this; several threads on disappointing CPO experiences and/or concerns over the CPO program and lack of an extended warranty option. Since this thread still has legs I guess I'll drop it here.

The letter below was received today from Tesla in response to a couple emails I sent to [email protected] and [email protected]. In my August 10 and August 17 emails to the company I expressed a number of reservations about the CPO program:


  • Lack of Extended Warranty option
  • Access to Vehicle Service Records
  • Ability to inspect vehicle before committing to an order
  • Expressed disappointment with the knowledge base of the staff at the local gallery (West 25th St in Manhattan)


I also referenced/linked three different threads here at TMC: this one, Out Of Warranty Concerns About Tesla, and Thoughts About Tesla Warranty, CPO, Service & Other Policies.

Response:

Hello Boerum Hill,

I appreciate you sending us your concerns about purchasing a pre-owned Model S. I do apologize that non one responded to your previous inquiry. I have looked into how we missed your email and made it learning experience for a new employee. I also apologize that you have had poor experiences in our showrooms, receiving contradicting information from employees.

I will work through your concerns from top to bottom to help me respond in a sensible manner. In regards to the standard warranty for CPO vehicles, when purchased, the standard warranty is reset to a 4 year/ 50,000 mile warranty. You are correct that there is no option for an extended warranty on CPO vehicles. Some of these vehicles are already 3 years old when purchased as CPO vehicles. With an extended warranty, these vehicles would be warrantied for over 10 years and much more than 100,000 for the bumper to bumper warranty. This is not something that we can warranty, and is also consistent with industry standards.

CPO service records can definitely be viewed prior to purchase. There is sensitive information from previous owners on these documents, so we would need to block this information prior to showing you the records, but we would be happy to show you records on our CPO vehicles.

You are also definitely allowed to see the physical car you want to purchase before doing so. If you want to inspect a pre-owned vehicle that you are physically able to travel to, please call your local showroom and schedule a viewing of any of those pre-owned vehicles. As for other pre-owned vehicles, realize that you are purchasing a car that is thousands of miles away. We are not able to accommodate you by shipping any number of pre-owned vehicles to you for free for you to inspect them in person. To transport these cars thousands of miles to you, we must have a deposit and shipping fee associated with this.

I believe strongly in the mission, passion, and engineering that goes into every single Model S. This car has earned numerous ratings, reviews, records and achievements that truly make it the greatest car ever produced. I wouldn’t want to sell our car to anyone that didn’t truly believe it was the best purchase that they could make. If you have any questions at all, please feel free to contact me directly.

Kind Regards,

Inside Sales Advisor, North American Inside Sales

First knee jerk response:


  1. There are no current 2012 CPO listings though in theory it's possible. But let's take it at face value: Tesla is comfortable with a warranty that covers a vehicle up to 6 years and up 80,000 miles - most CPO listings are presently either 2013 or 2014, and the mileage is rarely above 30K, though there was a Sig Red not long ago at 43K miles - however, Tesla is NOT comfortable with a warranty that goes out to 10 years and/or over 100K miles. It seems to me that is simply a matter of actuarial guesswork and pricing it appropriately. Offer different price points for vehicles that are 1, 2 or 3 years old. We are asking you to stand behind your product, or stop certifying and ship trade ins off to auction.
  2. CPO records can be viewed? That's not consistent with what we have seen reported here over and over again, but let's hope this is in fact the policy going forward.
  3. Reasonable response - many have inspected their cars and this isn't an issue for in market CPO listings. Its a bit dicey ordering an out of market CPO, though, given the disappointments a few folks here at TMC have had. This is a tough one for both Tesla and the buyer. I can appreciate they can't be shipping cars all over to be inspected/rejected/transferred or shipped back. At the same time, that limits my market to the 16 listings for New York (out of 330ish nationwide.)

He also provided me with his direct line and email.

Not sure how much this letter will influence my future buying behavior. I appreciate the acknowledgement; it's better than being ignored. Previously I wanted to buy a nicely optioned P85/P85+, but now I'm on the fence about whether I should get what I want or compromise to the safer choice of a new 85/90D. (ASIDE - I'm not asking for advice, just laying out where I am at in the process.)

Anyway, I thought others might find it insightful to read this.
 
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First knee jerk response:


  1. There are no current 2012 CPO listings though in theory it's possible. But let's take it at face value: Tesla is comfortable with a warranty that covers a vehicle up to 6 years and up 80,000 miles - most CPO listings are presently either 2013 or 2014, and the mileage is rarely above 30K, though there was a Sig Red not long ago at 43K miles - however, Tesla is NOT comfortable with a warranty that goes out to 10 years and/or over 100K miles. It seems to me that is simply a matter of actuarial guesswork and pricing it appropriately. Offer different price points for vehicles that are 1, 2 or 3 years old. We are asking you to stand behind your product, or stop certifying and ship trade ins off to auction.
  2. CPO records can be viewed? That's not consistent with what we have seen reported here over and over again, but let's hope this is in fact the policy going forward.
  3. Reasonable response - many have inspected their cars and this isn't an issue for in market CPO listings. Its a bit dicey ordering an out of market CPO, though, given the disappointments a few folks here at TMC have had. This is a tough one for both Tesla and the buyer. I can appreciate they can't be shipping cars all over to be inspected/rejected/transferred or shipped back. At the same time, that limits my market to the 16 listings for New York (out of 330ish nationwide.)

1. Interesting. One could buy a new car + extended warranty, drive 12k miles a year, and be covered 8 years/100k miles. That seems to go against the statement you received. That said, maybe that includes an accounting for the anyone at 8 years with only 100k miles could be an outlier and will either have low miles for 8 years, or run out at 100k miles prior to 8 years. But such outliers can be accounted for, as you say, by adjusting costs of the extended warranty.

2. Someone at Tesla reached out to me a couple weeks back about this thread. He is still looking into the details of my car and things are a bit up in the air about what is going to happen/not happen with my car. I explicitly asked him about this and he stated that it is Tesla Corporate Policy not to share the service history, even with the subsequent buyer. He indicated that this is a legal issue for Tesla in some territories and they made a unified policy across the U.S. for consistency. I strongly feel I should be able to see the service history of my car (with prior owner info obscured).

3. IMO, this is only a reasonable response if Tesla stands behind the car they are certifying. This thread and others have shown that is not the message Tesla is delivering to their customers. I have a four digit bill I had to pay to the body shop for the fix to my car. Such bills should not be the new owner's concern for problems from the prior owner.

---

Meanwhile, reliability on these "older" Teslas are a concern. 100 miles after getting my car back last time, my passenger front window either pops halfway up or no longer closes. :(
 
  1. [...] Tesla is NOT comfortable with a warranty that goes out to 10 years and/or over 100K miles. It seems to me that is simply a matter of actuarial guesswork and pricing it appropriately. Offer different price points for vehicles that are 1, 2 or 3 years old. We are asking you to stand behind your product, or stop certifying and ship trade ins off to auction.
I don't view the warranty issue as being equivalent to "stop certifying and ship trade ins off to auction". Warranty policies are significant business decisions. Resetting the warranty to 4 years / 50K miles seems appropriate for a CPO. Not being able to extend that warranty in my view doesn't equate to Tesla not standing behind its product. To extend a warranty by 4 years on a car that may already be 2 or 3 years old is a significant commitment.

To me, the real issue is that the quality of the CPO product is uneven, when Tesla seems to be saying implicitly (or maybe explicitly) that they are trying to raise the bar on CPO expectations. *That's* where the certify/no-certify-go-to-auction decision is critical.

This is a tough one for both Tesla and the buyer. I can appreciate they can't be shipping cars all over to be inspected/rejected/transferred or shipped back. At the same time, that limits my market to the 16 listings for New York (out of 330ish nationwide.)

But this is exactly where the rubber meets the road for a CPO program touted to raise the bar on expectations and being run by a company that is directly, itself, shuffling its inventories across geographies and making the entire inventory available for sale across the country. If Tesla wants this CPO program to be as exceptional as their new car buying experience, then they are going to have to (a) step up the standards and/or implementation of their CPO intake and reconditioning process AND (b) stand behind the product with a variety of remedies for defects that surface after the customer purchases the vehicle, such as (i) curing the defect, (ii) buying back the product and/or (iii) waiving shipping fees. Tesla wants the benefits of a nationwide inventory; it must also live with the costs of a nationwide inventory. IMHO.

Perhaps one of the most troubling aspects of these CPO stories is that they seem to be stories from good customers. Heck, we all know that there are bad customers. And the car business appears to bring out more customers (and sellers) acting in bad faith than many other businesses. But the CPO stories I've read so far strike me as being written by good customers trying to approach their problems reasonably. I wonder if the CPO side of Tesla is having trouble differentiating between the good customers who may have exacting standards but are behaving in good faith, and the bad customers just out to screw Tesla.

Alan

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Meanwhile, reliability on these "older" Teslas are a concern. 100 miles after getting my car back last time, my passenger front window either pops halfway up or no longer closes. :(

But... but.... you can get a car from the factory that has a leaky seal or a window problem or some other issue. And you've got a 4 year/50K mile warranty on your CPO. Isn't this exactly the kind of problem that warranties are meant for? It's a shame, and a pain in the ass to have to go back to get the car serviced, but at the end of the day, isn't this a regular issue?

Alan
 
But... but.... you can get a car from the factory that has a leaky seal or a window problem or some other issue. And you've got a 4 year/50K mile warranty on your CPO. Isn't this exactly the kind of problem that warranties are meant for? It's a shame, and a pain in the ass to have to go back to get the car serviced, but at the end of the day, isn't this a regular issue?

Alan

That is what the warranty is for, I disagree with the nonchalant attitude in the post about the quality of the car. I feel like I had less issues in the first few years of ownership with my previous car than I do with the MS in the first couple months (I have a new one, not CPO).
Broken door handle
Unresponsive scroll wheel
Phantom errors from the parking sensors
Armrest disattached
etc.

I love the car, and hoping that the issues stop soon...
 
If you discount oil changes, regular alignment checks, and tire rotations on my last vehicle (Toyota 4Runner, bought new in 2006) and also discount any annual service on the Tesla (none yet for me), my Model S will now be in for warranty service more times in 3 months of ownership than the 4Runner did in 9 years of ownership - and the 4Runner has less rust on its brake rotors and calipers (though in all fairness, the rotors were resurfaced 2 years ago and the disc brakes replaced 1 (rear) - 2 (front) years ago.

At the moment, I got the 4Runner back and it is my daily driver again until the window gets fixed, the paint cures, and Xpel is applied. Thankfully, the 4Runner went to family in South Carolina, so we drove down and got it back a couple weeks ago while my car was serviced. Felt odd to be driving an ICE again, but nice to not worry about things as I drive around. Still prefer the Model S though, so I'll be happy to be driving it again in September.
 
If you discount oil changes, regular alignment checks, and tire rotations on my last vehicle (Toyota 4Runner, bought new in 2006) and also discount any annual service on the Tesla (none yet for me), my Model S will now be in for warranty service more times in 3 months of ownership than the 4Runner did in 9 years of ownership - and the 4Runner has less rust on its brake rotors and calipers (though in all fairness, the rotors were resurfaced 2 years ago and the disc brakes replaced 1 (rear) - 2 (front) years ago.

At the moment, I got the 4Runner back and it is my daily driver again until the window gets fixed, the paint cures, and Xpel is applied. Thankfully, the 4Runner went to family in South Carolina, so we drove down and got it back a couple weeks ago while my car was serviced. Felt odd to be driving an ICE again, but nice to not worry about things as I drive around. Still prefer the Model S though, so I'll be happy to be driving it again in September.

Whoa, brother...the CPO drove you back to ICE (albeit temporarily.) This saga just gets worse & worse.

;)

Better days ahead.
 
Whoa, brother...the CPO drove you back to ICE (albeit temporarily.) This saga just gets worse & worse.

;)

Better days ahead.

Yup, but I've now tacked on about 1,500 miles on the 4Runner since getting it back, so I've gotten over the hump. I still am forgetting to turn it off until I get out of the seat and I really do miss built in Bluetooth. The Model S has gone out twice. Once for a Tesla Owners lunch about 9 days ago and then this past weekend in an EV parade (which I was still upset over this whole thing that I had a Volt and Leaf owner do the driving). It was at the end of the parade that the window wouldn't come up. Thankfully there wasn't any rain.

P.S. - Static Cling signs work great over Xpel. I made sure no signs were on the repainted panels.
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