My experience using FSD on a road trip from CA to ID - and how Tesla responded to problems

[LakeForestM3]

I recently moved form California to Idaho. As part of that move, I decided to drive my Model 3 performance from Orange County to Idaho. This is a fairlly long drive, so I decided to enable one month's worth of FSD to help me along the way.

This is the first time i had tried using FSD on a long road trip, and sadly it will 99% likely be my last. Here is why:

At first, things were going well. The car drove well (I'm actually a big fan of the Model 3 Performance's handling) and was comfortable and enjoyable. Then, seemingly for no reason, the car would slow down for no apparent reason. I didn't think more of it, disengaged FSD and got back up to speed and re-engaged it. A couple of hours later, this happened again and I - as before - disengaged and re-engaged FSD after having gotten back up to speed.

The next day was the longest of the 2: I was driving from Bishop, CA to Star, ID. During this second day of driving, the same symptom as the prior day was still present and got increasingly worse. For example: about mid-day, I was on I-80 in northern Nevada, heading north. The car went into full regen for no reason at all, and then back up to speed. The final "straw that broke the camels back" was that same afternoon: I was driving north on US-95 north of Rome, OR using FSD. The car suddenly went into full panic braking (not just regen) and I had to step HARD on the accelerator to avoid stopping in the middle of the road.

I didn't use FSD for the remainder of the trip.

A few days later, having arrived home, I opened a service request with Tesla Service to have them do something about this. I had - in the past - heard of phantom braking and experience 2 or 3 very mild situations in the past, but never anything to this extent.

The service team in Boise was friendly and asked clarifying questions and asked for more information to (supposedly) help their team find the relevant data for each incident. -In most (not all) of the incidents from the long drive, I had recorded feedback so I have to believe Tesla has the data and knows when and where each event took place.

After about a month of waiting, the service team called me and tried to convince me that these types of phantom braking events "could" be normal. I asked them whether anyone had actually reviewed the data they had promised to review, and I was told that, no, noone had actually done that. They also tried to convince me that I just need to keep disengaging FSD and that I just need to supervise FSD properly.

So, at this point I have to admit that I got pretty frustrated and angry. I asked the service writer: "How does supervision prevent these events?" -They couldn't answer. I also asked them what would happen if one of these events happened when I had an18 wheeler behind me. They couldn't answer that either.

Ultimately, we agreed that they would escalate the issue and we mutually agreed that it made sense to reschedule the service appointment until such time as their "incident team" (I think that's what they called the team in question) had had a chance to review the data.

Then finally, yesterday, the service manager from Tesla in Boise calle me. He was kind, civil (as was I) and told me that he had received the response from their incident review team. He then proceeded to read the response to me.

What he read, was (in my opinion) clearly written by their legal team, or taken from their terms and conditions. It was a long legal statement which reiterated what they had already told me: That anything can happen at any time for any reason and that FSD needs to be supervised. There was no explanation whatsoever of what had actually caused the phantom braking events.

So: I'm now left with a car equipped with a cruise control I can't trust and Tesla who clearly don't give a crap.

To be honest, I'm not sure what I want to accomplish by posting this, other than to share my experience. I *am* going to pay an attorney for an hour or two to review this situation. I can't accept that Tesla's attitude seems to be THIS arrogant and uninterested when their technology clearly has problems.

Edit: Let's please keep politics about California and Idaho out of this thread.

 

[EvilNuff]

The sad thing is probably the majority of their FSD team know its utter garbage and will never reach the promised level 5 autonomy. They cannot say anything, however, as that's the cliff edge that the lemmings are being led towards.

 

[RTPEV]

This is not necessarily atypical behavior of FSD (or even Autopilot). After using it for awhile you do get to learn and anticipate where it's going to potentially have issues, but sometimes it just happens out of the blue (although I've found that to be very rare). Whether they want to call it "beta" or "supervised", that's just the nature of this work in progress that they've decided to use us as guinea pigs for (and have us pay them for that privilege!)

I do think you need to lower your expectations regarding anyone looking at your specific situation. That's just not going to happen, and even if someone looked at it, the nature of how neural nets work means they will not be able to explain anything to you. All they can really do is add the video clip to the training set to help it learn how not to behave like that in the future. That's just how AI works (or at least this kind of implementation of it). There may be some explanations of why it behaved the way it did (sometimes it sees a yellow flashing light that it thinks is a stop light turning read, or an emergency vehicle for example -- again, this is the kind of thing you keep an eye out for).

I agree with you that what you're left with is a car with a cruise control you can't trust. I basically drive with my foot hovering over the accelerator so I can take evasive action for any unwanted braking events. So much for being a driver assistance providing for a more relaxing ride! And it's gotten worse recently, not better.

I do think it's a waste of your time and money to have a lawyer look at it. For one thing, I'm pretty sure Tesla's legal team is well funded enough to fend off any such attempts of legal action. Plus what are you out? $199? Your hour or two of attorney time will cost you far more than that. Maybe it will make you feel better that you at least tried, but realistically speaking, it's not going to result in much.

 

[ewoodrick]

I recently moved form California to Idaho. As part of that move, I decided to drive my Model 3 performance from Orange County to Idaho. This is a fairlly long drive, so I decided to enable one month's worth of FSD to help me along the way.

This is the first time i had tried using FSD on a long road trip, and sadly it will 99% likely be my last. Here is why:

At first, things were going well. The car drove well (I'm actually a big fan of the Model 3 Performance's handling) and was comfortable and enjoyable. Then, seemingly for no reason, the car would slow down for no apparent reason. I didn't think more of it, disengaged FSD and got back up to speed and re-engaged it. A couple of hours later, this happened again and I - as before - disengaged and re-engaged FSD after having gotten back up to speed.

The next day was the longest of the 2: I was driving from Bishop, CA to Star, ID. During this second day of driving, the same symptom as the prior day was still present and got increasingly worse. For example: about mid-day, I was on I-80 in northern Nevada, heading north. The car went into full regen for no reason at all, and then back up to speed. The final "straw that broke the camels back" was that same afternoon: I was driving north on US-95 north of Rome, OR using FSD. The car suddenly went into full panic braking (not just regen) and I had to step HARD on the accelerator to avoid stopping in the middle of the road.

I didn't use FSD for the remainder of the trip.

A few days later, having arrived home, I opened a service request with Tesla Service to have them do something about this. I had - in the past - heard of phantom braking and experience 2 or 3 very mild situations in the past, but never anything to this extent.


So: I'm now left with a car equipped with a cruise control I can't trust and Tesla who clearly don't give a crap.

To be honest, I'm not sure what I want to accomplish by posting this, other than to share my experience. I *am* going to pay an attorney for an hour or two to review this situation. I can't accept that Tesla's attitude seems to be THIS arrogant and uninterested when their technology clearly has problems.

Tesla is NOT going to do a full investigation into your situations, sorry. That's because it is a well-known issue and others have experienced it for years, I know that I have.

FSD is still effectively a beta product, although Tesla uses the name "Supervised" now.
When they say supervised, they mean what they say. The car is not perfect. You should NOT ASSUME that the car is perfect.

Phantom braking is a thing for ALL cars with ADAS platforms, there are many other manufacturers being reviewed by the NTSB for phantom braking.

When the car starts to brake, all you have to do is slightly depress the accelerator and it will override it. In no situation do you have to "step hard" on the accelerator. The biggest issue was simply that you were surprised at the action and overreacted.

While on the highway, I suspect that a Max Speed was showing and you could change it by rolling up or down. If so, that's not FSD, it doesn't tend to engage on Interstates. Buying FSD for a trip is not really a smart thing, since that's mostly just Autopilot driving at that point.
FSD's usefulness is basically everywhere else, like driving to lunch.

There are hundreds of threads and probably thousands of YouTube videos on the subject of phantom braking. In the latest FSD releases, it has gotten much better, and in a trip that long, it is a little surprising that you only had two instances.


I know this isn't what you wanted to hear. Just stating the facts.

 

[LakeForestM3]

@ewoodrick With all respect: You weren't there so you don't know what I needed, or didn't need, to do. You also don't know what max speed was, or wasn't set to. Max speed cannot account for all of these situations. I was there, I saw it first hand, you didn't.

I'm also not willing to think of this as an all-or-nothing black/white situation. Everything has *some* amount of problems or issues from time to time an that's fine. However: Having 6 phantom braking applications, of increasing severity, in 2 days is too much. Period. Tesla's attitude of "sue me" is also a problem.

Edit: and since you bring up the state of functionality of FSD: I actually tend to agree that it's not complete. That'd be totally fine if I could just opt out of all the autonomy and get a "dumb" cruise control instead, but that's not possible either. I'm stuck with a choice of no cruise control, TACC or FSD. There is no option for just a "hold this speed"

 

[LakeForestM3]

Also: I don't expect perfection, so please stop with the deliberate conflating of issues.
I *do* expect the car to be safe.

There is no reality in which phantom braking does NOT pose a safety issue.

 

[MP3Mike]

There is no reality in which phantom braking does NOT pose a safety issue.

And yet every TACC system out there does it. (Some more than others.)

I also asked them what would happen if one of these events happened when I had an18 wheeler behind me. They couldn't answer that either.

And what if there is something in the road you need to stop for and there is an 18 wheeler behind you? It is the 18 wheeler's responsibility to be alert and leave enough room for them to slow down, or stop, to not rear end you.

 

[LakeForestM3]

And what if there is something in the road you need to stop for and there is an 18 wheeler behind you? It is the 18 wheeler's responsibility to be alert and leave enough room for them to slow down, or stop, to not rear end you.

Sure! If the 18 wheeler sees the same obstacle in front of me, then absolutely. If there is no visible obstacle in front of me, and the car suddenly brakes for no reason then what? And, if you want play the "what if" game then: WHAT IF someone takes the phantom braking as a brake check and gets pissed off?

 

[MP3Mike]

If the 18 wheeler sees the same obstacle in front of me, then absolutely. If there is no visible obstacle in front of me, and the car suddenly brakes for no reason then what?

There doesn't need to be any obstacle visible to them. Your vehicle could have a mechanical failure that causes something to lock up. Again, it is the responsibility of the driver following you to be alert and leave enough distance for them to react to anything you do.

 

[LakeForestM3]

There doesn't need to be any obstacle visible to them. Your vehicle could have a mechanical failure that causes something to lock up. Again, it is the responsibility of the driver following you to be alert and leave enough distance for them to react to anything you do.

..and therefore it's perfectly Ok for FSD or TACC to suddenly slow down and / or brake for no reason? I don't buy it. Plain and simple: FSD & TACC are incomplete to the point where they are dangerous to use. Give me a "dumb" cruise control and I'll happily use that.

 

[Dewg]

I recently moved form California to Idaho. As part of that move, I decided to drive my Model 3 performance from Orange County to Idaho. This is a fairlly long drive, so I decided to enable one month's worth of FSD to help me along the way.

This is the first time i had tried using FSD on a long road trip, and sadly it will 99% likely be my last. Here is why:

At first, things were going well. The car drove well (I'm actually a big fan of the Model 3 Performance's handling) and was comfortable and enjoyable. Then, seemingly for no reason, the car would slow down for no apparent reason. I didn't think more of it, disengaged FSD and got back up to speed and re-engaged it. A couple of hours later, this happened again and I - as before - disengaged and re-engaged FSD after having gotten back up to speed.

The next day was the longest of the 2: I was driving from Bishop, CA to Star, ID. During this second day of driving, the same symptom as the prior day was still present and got increasingly worse. For example: about mid-day, I was on I-80 in northern Nevada, heading north. The car went into full regen for no reason at all, and then back up to speed. The final "straw that broke the camels back" was that same afternoon: I was driving north on US-95 north of Rome, OR using FSD. The car suddenly went into full panic braking (not just regen) and I had to step HARD on the accelerator to avoid stopping in the middle of the road.

I didn't use FSD for the remainder of the trip.

A few days later, having arrived home, I opened a service request with Tesla Service to have them do something about this. I had - in the past - heard of phantom braking and experience 2 or 3 very mild situations in the past, but never anything to this extent.

The service team in Boise was friendly and asked clarifying questions and asked for more information to (supposedly) help their team find the relevant data for each incident. -In most (not all) of the incidents from the long drive, I had recorded feedback so I have to believe Tesla has the data and knows when and where each event took place.

After about a month of waiting, the service team called me and tried to convince me that these types of phantom braking events "could" be normal. I asked them whether anyone had actually reviewed the data they had promised to review, and I was told that, no, noone had actually done that. They also tried to convince me that I just need to keep disengaging FSD and that I just need to supervise FSD properly.

So, at this point I have to admit that I got pretty frustrated and angry. I asked the service writer: "How does supervision prevent these events?" -They couldn't answer. I also asked them what would happen if one of these events happened when I had an18 wheeler behind me. They couldn't answer that either.

Ultimately, we agreed that they would escalate the issue and we mutually agreed that it made sense to reschedule the service appointment until such time as their "incident team" (I think that's what they called the team in question) had had a chance to review the data.

Then finally, yesterday, the service manager from Tesla in Boise calle me. He was kind, civil (as was I) and told me that he had received the response from their incident review team. He then proceeded to read the response to me.

What he read, was (in my opinion) clearly written by their legal team, or taken from their terms and conditions. It was a long legal statement which reiterated what they had already told me: That anything can happen at any time for any reason and that FSD needs to be supervised. There was no explanation whatsoever of what had actually caused the phantom braking events.

So: I'm now left with a car equipped with a cruise control I can't trust and Tesla who clearly don't give a crap.

To be honest, I'm not sure what I want to accomplish by posting this, other than to share my experience. I *am* going to pay an attorney for an hour or two to review this situation. I can't accept that Tesla's attitude seems to be THIS arrogant and uninterested when their technology clearly has problems.

Edit: Let's please keep politics about California and Idaho out of this thread.

Sounds like a terrible experience - glad you're okay.

Out of curiosity, after you subscribed to FSD:

1) Did you get a software update for the car (Settings -> Software)
2) Did you see the new FSDS settings in Settings -> Autopilot, and enable FSDS?
3) Did you have ASSO (Automatic Set Speed Offset) enabled or disabled?
4) When the car suddenly slowed down, did the max speed drop on the screen? For example, it's set to 70MPH (Max), and then when it starts braking, the speed limit showing on the screen is suddenly 30MPH or some very low number. This can sometimes indicate a failure to read a speed limit sign, or a GPS issue where the car thinks it's on a side road and not the interstate.

As a few others have said, phantom braking used to be pretty bad over a year ago, but recent v11 and v12 stacks have significantly reduced them. Where many people see phantom braking now is in incorrect speed limits - the system sees a sign that has a 40 or 45 on it (such as Interstate 45) and thinks it's a speed limit and drops the limit to 45.

Older AP code would very quickly drop speed when limits changed, but newer FSDS is more graceful about speed drops, and slows down more smoothly, giving you time to realize what's going on and adjust. FSDS on freeways (which uses the older v11 stack) now has a traffic flow system, so if the speed limit drops from 70 -> 55, it won't just suddenly drop to 55, it will say "Maintaining speed for traffic flow" and gradually bring down your speed.

There are definitely still phantom braking issues, such as mirages on hot asphalt. I personally haven't seen those in a long time (since late v11 code was out), and I drive to Las Vegas from Orange County with 90s-100s in temp.

 

[LakeForestM3]

Sounds like a terrible experience - glad you're okay.

Out of curiosity, after you subscribed to FSD:

1) Did you get a software update for the car (Settings -> Software)
2) Did you see the new FSDS settings in Settings -> Autopilot, and enable FSDS?
3) Did you have ASSO (Automatic Set Speed Offset) enabled or disabled?
4) When the car suddenly slowed down, did the max speed drop on the screen? For example, it's set to 70MPH (Max), and then when it starts braking, the speed limit showing on the screen is suddenly 30MPH or some very low number. This can sometimes indicate a failure to read a speed limit sign, or a GPS issue where the car thinks it's on a side road and not the interstate.

As a few others have said, phantom braking used to be pretty bad over a year ago, but recent v11 and v12 stacks have significantly reduced them. Where many people see phantom braking now is in incorrect speed limits - the system sees a sign that has a 40 or 45 on it (such as Interstate 45) and thinks it's a speed limit and drops the limit to 45.

Older AP code would very quickly drop speed when limits changed, but newer FSDS is more graceful about speed drops, and slows down more smoothly, giving you time to realize what's going on and adjust. FSDS on freeways (which uses the older v11 stack) now has a traffic flow system, so if the speed limit drops from 70 -> 55, it won't just suddenly drop to 55, it will say "Maintaining speed for traffic flow" and gradually bring down your speed.

There are definitely still phantom braking issues, such as mirages on hot asphalt. I personally haven't seen those in a long time (since late v11 code was out), and I drive to Las Vegas from Orange County with 90s-100s in temp.

Thanks for the kind words. It was frustrating and startling to say the least.

Now to try and answer your questions:

1: Yes, as I recall I did receive an update after subscribing
2: Yes
3: As I recall, it was enabled at the start of the journey, but I stopped along the way and turned it off. I wanted the car to drive at the speed I set, and disregard speed limit signs as part of "troubleshooting" or isolating the problem.
4: In the first 2 incidents, I *think* it may have. During the last 2, it *DEFINITELY* did not. -By then I was hyper vigilant about everything on the display, and I know with 100% certainty that there were no posted changes in speed limit for the last 2 incidents.

 

[Dewg]

Thanks for the kind words. It was frustrating and startling to say the least.

Now to try and answer your questions:

1: Yes, as I recall I did receive an update after subscribing
2: Yes
3: As I recall, it was enabled at the start of the journey, but I stopped along the way and turned it off. I wanted the car to drive at the speed I set, and disregard speed limit signs as part of "troubleshooting" or isolating the problem.
4: In the first 2 incidents, I *think* it may have. During the last 2, it *DEFINITELY* did not. -By then I was hyper vigilant about everything on the display, and I know with 100% certainty that there were no posted changes in speed limit for the last 2 incidents.

It's definitely pointing to legit phantom braking - which just means the system "thought it saw" something and braked to avoid an interaction. It's like when you swear you saw something out of the corner of your eye, but when you look there's nothing there. It's a bummer you had those - they're no fun. Mercifully, for me, they've all but gone away in the last year or so. Sounds like you had everything set, so there's nothing else I can offer to help shed light on it.

 

[LakeForestM3]

It's definitely pointing to legit phantom braking - which just means the system "thought it saw" something and braked to avoid an interaction. It's like when you swear you saw something out of the corner of your eye, but when you look there's nothing there. It's a bummer you had those - they're no fun. Mercifully, for me, they've all but gone away in the last year or so. Sounds like you had everything set, so there's nothing else I can offer to help shed light on it.

Yeah, in my layman's mind, these are false positives in whatever AI / image recognition the car uses.

Thanks for your insight, though.

 

[zoomer0056]

..and therefore it's perfectly Ok for FSD or TACC to suddenly slow down and / or brake for no reason?

That's not what Mike said.

Had you used FSDS or beta before this long trip or read about it's bad behavior on this forum?

 

[LakeForestM3]

Had you used FSDS or beta before this long trip or read about it's bad behavior on this forum?

No, not outside short local trips up and down the 405 in Orange County.

I had *read* about phantom braking, but never experienced it with the frequency or severity I did on this trip.

 

[ewoodrick]

@ewoodrick With all respect: You weren't there so you don't know what I needed, or didn't need, to do. You also don't know what max speed was, or wasn't set to. Max speed cannot account for all of these situations. I was there, I saw it first hand, you didn't.

I'm also not willing to think of this as an all-or-nothing black/white situation. Everything has *some* amount of problems or issues from time to time an that's fine. However: Having 6 phantom braking applications, of increasing severity, in 2 days is too much. Period. Tesla's attitude of "sue me" is also a problem.

Edit: and since you bring up the state of functionality of FSD: I actually tend to agree that it's not complete. That'd be totally fine if I could just opt out of all the autonomy and get a "dumb" cruise control instead, but that's not possible either. I'm stuck with a choice of no cruise control, TACC or FSD. There is no option for just a "hold this speed"

@LakeForestM3 you've driven FSD for 2 days. I've driven it and its predecessors for over 6 years.

You seem to think that you are the first and only person that this has happened to. You are not. I could even dare say that you may be around the 5 millionth person that this has happened to, I may even be dramatically low in the number when I include other manufacturers.

I would not be surprised it EVERYONE on this forum has experienced that exact same situation that you did. And I dare say that there may have been dozens that experienced it in the same locations that you did.
I know that I have experienced those very same symptoms many times. I don't even think twice about them anymore, I just add a little accelerator.

Do a search on "Phantom Braking" and do a search on "Phantom Braking NTSB -Tesla" as well. See how the NTSB is investigating the issue, and if I remember correctly, they've closed the Tesla case with no action recommended. Indeed, the cases in which ADAS keeps accidents from happening outweigh the issues.
That's just like airbags, they hurt people, they've been known to kill people, but they've saved the lives of many more people than they've killed.

You agree that FSD is not complete? That's mighty generous of you stating a well-known FACT.

So, yes, you are stuck with TACC or FSD. And you may be surprised how other vehicles have the same limitations.

FSD has to learn, and drivers have to learn FSD. It's not something that is done in two days.

 

[LakeForestM3]

You seem to think that you are the first and only person that this has happened to.

Ehm, No. No I don't.

I do think that it's the first time it has happened to ME to this extent (frequency and severity)

How long has Tesla had to develop this? You state that you have driven it for 6 years, so arguably they have had at least that time. If, after 6 years of development there are problems to the point where there is danger to the user, then that's a problem regardless of how much we like / love Tesla for everything they are doing.

 

[ewoodrick]

Ehm, No. No I don't.

I do think that it's the first time it has happened to ME to this extent (frequency and severity)

How long has Tesla had to develop this? You state that you have driven it for 6 years, so arguably they have had at least that time. If, after 6 years of development there are problems to the point where there is danger to the user, then that's a problem regardless of how much we like / love Tesla for everything they are doing.

If you don't think that you were the only one, then why the need for the investigation?

The problem is MUCH deeper than you seem to think. For one thing, there are two causes for this behavior, one is a misnomer, and that's an unexpected speed change. There are a number of places where somehow a very small segment ties some road segment together ant the car thinks that the speed limit actually changes.
The other is basically the car sees something. And because Tesla has caught flack on missing things, they have to (and should) err on the side of caution. If you are going down the Interstate and you see a stopped vehicle in the road 200 ft in front of you, what should you do? That's exactly what the car is doing. People do it as well. Yes, I've seen people phantom brake as well.

6 years, yes, it has gotten better and it has gotten worse, in cycles over the years. They work hard on training the AI appropriately. If you are seeing an adjustable speed limit, that not even the AI yet.

 

[AS9.9.]

I recently moved form California to Idaho. As part of that move, I decided to drive my Model 3 performance from Orange County to Idaho. This is a fairlly long drive, so I decided to enable one month's worth of FSD to help me along the way.

This is the first time i had tried using FSD on a long road trip, and sadly it will 99% likely be my last. Here is why:

At first, things were going well. The car drove well (I'm actually a big fan of the Model 3 Performance's handling) and was comfortable and enjoyable. Then, seemingly for no reason, the car would slow down for no apparent reason. I didn't think more of it, disengaged FSD and got back up to speed and re-engaged it. A couple of hours later, this happened again and I - as before - disengaged and re-engaged FSD after having gotten back up to speed.

The next day was the longest of the 2: I was driving from Bishop, CA to Star, ID. During this second day of driving, the same symptom as the prior day was still present and got increasingly worse. For example: about mid-day, I was on I-80 in northern Nevada, heading north. The car went into full regen for no reason at all, and then back up to speed. The final "straw that broke the camels back" was that same afternoon: I was driving north on US-95 north of Rome, OR using FSD. The car suddenly went into full panic braking (not just regen) and I had to step HARD on the accelerator to avoid stopping in the middle of the road.

I didn't use FSD for the remainder of the trip.

A few days later, having arrived home, I opened a service request with Tesla Service to have them do something about this. I had - in the past - heard of phantom braking and experience 2 or 3 very mild situations in the past, but never anything to this extent.

The service team in Boise was friendly and asked clarifying questions and asked for more information to (supposedly) help their team find the relevant data for each incident. -In most (not all) of the incidents from the long drive, I had recorded feedback so I have to believe Tesla has the data and knows when and where each event took place.

After about a month of waiting, the service team called me and tried to convince me that these types of phantom braking events "could" be normal. I asked them whether anyone had actually reviewed the data they had promised to review, and I was told that, no, noone had actually done that. They also tried to convince me that I just need to keep disengaging FSD and that I just need to supervise FSD properly.

So, at this point I have to admit that I got pretty frustrated and angry. I asked the service writer: "How does supervision prevent these events?" -They couldn't answer. I also asked them what would happen if one of these events happened when I had an18 wheeler behind me. They couldn't answer that either.

Ultimately, we agreed that they would escalate the issue and we mutually agreed that it made sense to reschedule the service appointment until such time as their "incident team" (I think that's what they called the team in question) had had a chance to review the data.

Then finally, yesterday, the service manager from Tesla in Boise calle me. He was kind, civil (as was I) and told me that he had received the response from their incident review team. He then proceeded to read the response to me.

What he read, was (in my opinion) clearly written by their legal team, or taken from their terms and conditions. It was a long legal statement which reiterated what they had already told me: That anything can happen at any time for any reason and that FSD needs to be supervised. There was no explanation whatsoever of what had actually caused the phantom braking events.

So: I'm now left with a car equipped with a cruise control I can't trust and Tesla who clearly don't give a crap.

To be honest, I'm not sure what I want to accomplish by posting this, other than to share my experience. I *am* going to pay an attorney for an hour or two to review this situation. I can't accept that Tesla's attitude seems to be THIS arrogant and uninterested when their technology clearly has problems.

Edit: Let's please keep politics about California and Idaho out of this thread.

Mate, turn that crap off! FSD is the biggest joke on the market. Tesla is committing fraud with their deceptive wording/marketing and inflating its capabilities to the moon. Period.

Many individuals on this forum defend a company that claims to have solved autonomy for several years now without actually doing it. The longer people seem to drive it, the more infatuated they become with it trying to drive them into oncoming traffic, and they build some love-hate relationship that seems to turn into all love (stock-holm syndrome, perhaps?). Turn it off to save yourself a massive headache.