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My friend's model X crashed using AP yesterday

omarsultan

Active Member
Jun 22, 2013
2,309
4,665
Northern California
With a clear white line visible in the latest pics, it seems odd for the car to track off the road--perhaps driver only had TACC on or had full AP and inadvertantly disengaged AutoSteer. The vehicle logs will tell the story.
 

KaiserSoze

Member
Mar 27, 2016
191
123
USA
With a clear white line visible in the latest pics, it seems odd for the car to track off the road--perhaps driver only had TACC on or had full AP and inadvertantly disengaged AutoSteer. The vehicle logs will tell the story.

The lines are visible during the day, but at night there could, perhaps, have been a patch of localized fog. We're in need of a meteorology buff. Local weather data: OBS:WHITEHALL
 

schonelucht

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2014
5,080
8,770
Nederland
Surely he can call Tesla himself?

If they are using wechat, there is a good possibility the driver is Chinese. They may lack the English language skills to sufficiently explain what is going on to a telephone operator, especially when already under stress of the accident.

There seems to be quite a rapid succession of reports of drivers using AP in ways that the software/hardware is not capable enough for to handle.
 

Mark Z

Active Member
Mar 12, 2013
1,842
1,300
North Orange County
With the new photos, it is clear the incident did not occur at the creek since the wood stakes have the cable system and they are further from the road than the creek guard rail.

Maybe @Eresan can request the mile marker location from the driver.

Interstate 90 is nearby. There are some wood post heavy guard rails on that highway.
 
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ecarfan

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2013
19,197
13,846
San Mateo, CA
Just got more photos from the driver. The car was in autopilot at speed between 56-60, the car drove off the road hit the guard rail wood posts. I questioned him how can AP drove off the road himself, he said he also want to find out. Photo attached the wood posts he hit
Based on those photos, the "stakes" referred to in the OP are about two feet off the edge of the pave roadway. They are not "on the road". That phrase of course can be interpreted in a variety of ways.

The road in question is clearly not a road that AP should be used on, it is not a "freeway" or a "divided highway" with no cross traffic. It is a two lane country road with cross traffic.

And at 2AM the driver was likely tired and their reaction time was inadequate to take over from AP and safely control their vehicle.

The driver of the vehicle in question made multiple errors in judgement is using AP on that road. This crash is not the fault of Tesla AP, it is solely the fault of the driver.

The title of this thread is misleading and should be changed.
 

Oursecondone

Member
Apr 21, 2016
17
8
san antonio,TX
another nonissue...you CANT expect AP to substitute for normal vigilance while driving....he may have hit the crap in the road anyway, so AP is irrelevant....IMHO many people are frankly too complacent with AP and these issues are operator error....there is also a contingent that loves to make Tesla look bad and reports on this nonsense....millions are killed yearly worldwide in ICE cars and we seem pretty darn immune to that-accepting it as the cost of driving, although safety equipment has helped reduce the fatality rate....and its a BETA technology, still in testing phase, if you dont want to participate DONT USE IT!!....
 

jdw

Supporting Member
Jun 1, 2015
683
1,300
Vancouver
Think about how dumb the average person is and then realize that half the population is even dumber ...

Most of the regular posters here are somewhat technical and understand, at least at a conceptual level, how AP sensors work and their limitations. If you really had no idea and AP seemed somewhat magical, this kind of thing is what happens. Read the news articles about these events and even if they're written to slam Tesla, you realize how poorly AP is understood by the masses.

I think all Tesla could do about this would be to create a training and certification program for AP with a sign off that you had received the training, understood the limitations and were responsible for the operation of the vehicle at all times. No certification, no autopilot.

They shouldn't have to do this; AP is really only TACC and lane keeping, but the recent spate of driver error related AP posts suggests otherwise. It would at least help with the PR. Every recent AP accident has had a large, if not complete, case of drivers overestimating or not understanding AP's current abilities.
 
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Vitold

Active Member
Aug 10, 2015
1,688
1,785
NM
Just got more photos from the driver. The car was in autopilot at speed between 56-60, the car drove off the road hit the guard rail wood posts. I questioned him how can AP drove off the road himself, he said he also want to find out. Photo attached the wood posts he hit

This do not look like a guard rail post or something that belongs to the highway.

Pictured wood posts could have been installed by a landowner and are too close on a road with speed limit of 55mph. Normally, if highway authority was aware of them - speed limit would have been ~40mph - therefore your friend may have a case against the landowner.
 
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  • Disagree
  • Informative
Reactions: neroden and McManX

ecarfan

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2013
19,197
13,846
San Mateo, CA
I think all Tesla could do about this would be to create a training and certification program for AP with a sign off that you had received the training, understood the limitations and were responsible for the operation of the vehicle at all times. No certification, no autopilot.

They shouldn't have to do this...
But unfortunately it appears that Tesla needs to do exactly that. I have reluctantly reached the same conclusion in recent days; Tesla needs to have formal training program on AP for every customer who buys a car, new or CPO, with AP, and this program should also be open to anyone else who wants to take it, because there will be owners who bought their Tesla used from a third party, spouses of owners, family members of owners.

Too many people are using AP in situations that it is not designed for and/or they are not paying close enough attention to the road while using AP. As the number of Teslas sold with AP increases dramatically this year, and the next, and the next, there are going to be more and more people doing stupid things on AP, and more bad press.
 

JohnSnowNW

Active Member
Feb 13, 2015
2,626
2,748
Minnesota
But unfortunately it appears that Tesla needs to do exactly that. I have reluctantly reached the same conclusion in recent days; Tesla needs to have formal training program on AP for every customer who buys a car, new or CPO, with AP, and this program should also be open to anyone else who wants to take it, because there will be owners who bought their Tesla used from a third party, spouses of owners, family members of owners.

Too many people are using AP in situations that it is not designed for and/or they are not paying close enough attention to the road while using AP. As the number of Teslas sold with AP increases dramatically this year, and the next, and the next, there are going to be more and more people doing stupid things on AP, and more bad press.

A "How-to" video would be sufficient, I think. The use of AP, IMHO, isn't complicated enough to warrant a training program.
 

Stoneymonster

Active Member
Jan 8, 2013
1,787
1,064
Aptos, Ca
If they are using wechat, there is a good possibility the driver is Chinese. They may lack the English language skills to sufficiently explain what is going on to a telephone operator, especially when already under stress of the accident.

There seems to be quite a rapid succession of reports of drivers using AP in ways that the software/hardware is not capable enough for to handle.

It's a cluster effect due to the high publicity of the first incident. This often happens with "unintended" acceleration cases as well. Combined with whatever real or imagined controversy surrounds Tesla, it gets even more amplified. Expect it to continue.
 

buckerine

Member
May 29, 2014
208
183
Ohio
I'm going to just throw this conspiracy theory out there. Take it for what it's worth:

It's well known that there are a number of Chinese-backed Tesla competitors. In the past two days on this forum alone, I've already come across two posts clearly by Chinese posters who claim damage due to AP failure. This is the second. WeChat is a popular messaging app used by almost everyone from China (and used by almost no one who isn't Chinese).

I'm not saying this poster isn't legitimate (although, by the way, just because he claims to have an X doesn't necessarily make him legitimate). Just saying that we should all be mindful of the competitive landscape out there. I do not work for Tesla and am not associated with the company anyway other than the fact that I have an S on order, but even I feel like some of the anti-Tesla reporting and forum posts are a little odd.
 

KaiserSoze

Member
Mar 27, 2016
191
123
USA
I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that Tesla should not allow AP use on non-divided highways, period. For every accident we see, the response is always the same victim blaming: don't use AP on non-divided highways. And yet, some people will always do what the car allows them to do, and not what is buried in the owners manual. In fact, Tesla restricts AutoSteer speed on these roads. That's an explicit signal to the driver that the car thinks the road is OK for AP use as long as the speed is reduced. Tesla knows exactly which roads are not suitable for AP, and yet they continue to allow AP use despite telling customers not to use it.

I suspect they are trying to have their cake and eat it too: using customers a guinea pigs to beta test AP on normal roads, gathering copious amounts of data, but trying to avoid the liability for the inevitable crashes. That's negligence.
 
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Vitold

Active Member
Aug 10, 2015
1,688
1,785
NM
I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that Tesla should not allow AP use on non-divided highways, period. For every accident we see, the response is always the same victim blaming: don't use AP on non-divided highways. And yet, some people will always do what the car allows them to do, and not what is buried in the owners manual. In fact, Tesla restricts AutoSteer speed on these roads. That's an explicit signal to the driver that Tesla thinks the road is OK for AP use as long as the speed is reduced. Tesla knows exactly which roads are not suitable for AP, and yet they continue to allow AP use despite telling customers not to use it.

I suspect they are trying to have their cake and eat it too: using customers a guinea pigs to beta test AP on normal roads, gathering copious amounts of data, but trying don't want the liability for the inevitable crashes. That's negligence.

Though I share your sentiment (driving 60mph on a highway w/o shoulder is asking for trouble) I think it's best to base any kind of conclusions on facts. Yet, so far, we know very little about incidents that owners claim AP was involved and if and when driver tried to correct AP actions.
 

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