flyhigh123
Member
i would like to know about the current MX that have come out whether or not they have the necessary hardware or what can be done to get them the hardware...
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Colby Boles
Member
The $5500 price difference here is in the noise compared to the difference in value between a AP2.0-ready MX that can do level-4 autonomous driving and an AP1.0 MX that cannot. I could see the difference in value be $25k or more.
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Colby Boles
Member
I think a lot of the friction here comes from the fact that Tesla car models, like all other manufacturers, are discrete things released at discrete points in time (roadster, S, X, 3, ...), whereas some of the hardware and software features like the batteries and AP are under continuous development with release dates that have no correspondence to the release of the various models. I think this asynchronous timing hit the Model X at a particularly bad point where most people have only had a few months to enjoy this new model before both the battery, performance, and AP have been superseded. I don't really see this as the same situation as what happened in the Model S with the battery, motors, and AP1 improvements because the car had been available for some time before each new improvement came out.
It took over 5 months to build my car and another month to fix the problems at the SC and factory, so I have still been driving it for less time than it took to put together right and it is already outdated in some ways, which is pretty strange for a brand new model. The question is will I have learned my lesson by the time my Model 3 configuration invite comes...
It took over 5 months to build my car and another month to fix the problems at the SC and factory, so I have still been driving it for less time than it took to put together right and it is already outdated in some ways, which is pretty strange for a brand new model. The question is will I have learned my lesson by the time my Model 3 configuration invite comes...
What would you do if you have learned your lesson? Never buy a Tesla?I think a lot of the friction here comes from the fact that Tesla car models, like all other manufacturers, are discrete things released at discrete points in time (roadster, S, X, 3, ...), whereas some of the hardware and software features like the batteries and AP are under continuous development with release dates that have no correspondence to the release of the various models. I think this asynchronous timing hit the Model X at a particularly bad point where most people have only had a few months to enjoy this new model before both the battery, performance, and AP have been superseded. I don't really see this as the same situation as what happened in the Model S with the battery, motors, and AP1 improvements because the car had been available for some time before each new improvement came out.
It took over 5 months to build my car and another month to fix the problems at the SC and factory, so I have still been driving it for less time than it took to put together right and it is already outdated in some ways, which is pretty strange for a brand new model. The question is will I have learned my lesson by the time my Model 3 configuration invite comes...
I would argue that the self claimed Level 5 capable self driving is probably very far from reality. It's not just about having a few new hardwares, the improvement is not linear and rather a giant leap. Google's self driving car is equipped with more advanced hardwares like laser radar but still it hasn't hit L4 autonomy yet, not to mention L5.
Anyway, I think my point is for the folks with AP 1.0, please don't feel too bad for missing AP 2.0
. Just think it as a CPU and accessors upgrade for a PC. The real gap is not that significant. And a few new users are actually beta testing AP 2.0 because certain software feature can only be enabled after enough data is pulled it.To further make the folks feel better, how about by the time the full AP2.0 features are out, AP2.5/refresh/120kWh/HUD/whatever will be out by then. The whole thing repeats over and over again.I would argue that the self claimed Level 5 capable self driving is probably very far from reality. It's not just about having a few new hardwares, the improvement is not linear and rather a giant leap. Google's self driving car is equipped with more advanced hardwares like laser radar but still it hasn't hit L4 autonomy yet, not to mention L5.
Anyway, I think my point is for the folks with AP 1.0, please don't feel too bad for missing AP 2.0
For good or for bad this rapid level of technical advancement is going to impact all Electric cars at least for the next 5-10 years. Tesla is in a position where they have to evolve quickly because they're going to have competitors gunning for them rather quickly.
The competitors probably won't get it right the first time around (who does?).
It's certainly not going to be the last AP upgrade before Level 5. We have no idea what regulations will say about it, or if car-car communication will be needed.
Plus it's not like the car itself is really suited to Level 5 anyways. How do I take a piss, and am I seriously supposed to sleep in that? How about an Electric Camper Van instead?
Colby Boles
Member
No. I might wait a few months at least after my first opportunity to order. I got in a weird situation with my MX order where I ordered a P90DL in December 2015 expecting to have it on the sooner side, but instead the car came after those built for people that had ordered months later, in some cases non-P submodels, and yet with more problems due to its lower VIN. Basically, they had lots of production problems with the early builds, but because their production method links a particular VIN to a buyer right from the beginning, if they have trouble building that VIN car, it languishes while other cars finish production, instead of following any sort of FIFO-like rules. Had I ordered a little later, or even chosen some less expensive options, I would have gotten my car sooner, and with fewer problems. I'm not saying my situation was typical, but I have to set my future expectations based on my personal experience. I willingly signed up to be an early adopter and opted to pay more for a P submodel to get the car sooner, knowing there might be more issues, but I didn't expect to end up getting it late and still making that tradeoff.
Colby Boles
Member
[QUOTE="S4WRXTTCS, post: 1789606, member: 35279"Plus it's not like the car itself is really suited to Level 5 anyways. How do I take a piss, and am I seriously supposed to sleep in that? How about an Electric Camper Van instead?[/QUOTE]
I like how you think. I want a bed with wheels. Wake me when we are there. This will definitely need some new airbag technologies to pull off.
I like how you think. I want a bed with wheels. Wake me when we are there. This will definitely need some new airbag technologies to pull off.
No retrofit at all for cars with AP 1.0. Elon already clarified this two times in the conference call.
Colby Boles
Member
Anyway, I think my point is for the folks with AP 1.0, please don't feel too bad for missing AP 2.0
The problem with the PC upgrade analogy is that there is no upgrade available for the Tesla w/AP1. PC upgrades also tend to be very incremental in the sense that you are just changing some existing performance or capacity parameter (clock speed, cores, GPU, cache size, SSD, RAM, etc.). The difference between a 2.5GHz 4-core machine and a 3GHz 6-core machine is not that impressive unless you have some very specific usages. They both do the same thing, one is just a bit faster. The (potential) difference between what you can do with a AP1 ("level-2") and AP2 ("level 4/5") car is game-changing. It became pretty clear to me right away once I started using the car that the AP1 is primarily sensor suite limited and it would be hard to improve much without sensor upgrades.
For those who already ordered, calm down. AP 2.0 will not be the greatest thing ever. Our roadways in the USA are a disaster and in poor condition. AP 2.0 will still not work in construction zones, roads with no lines, etc. It just won't regardless of what EM says. Just ask Google. Their autonomous car is way further advanced than anyone and they are having problem's overcoming the infrastructure of our roads. As far as value drop in existing cars, other than the normal 20% the first year (partly due to the tax credit issue) I can't see any addition drop just because it only has AP 1.0 Most buyers of used cars are not hung up on the latest and greatest hence they buy used. cars.
travwill
Active Member
agree, and in real life large cities where following the rules will get you nowhere. AP2.0 will be great for the 1% in perfect scenarios, but even then 1) it'll likely get you to where your going slower/more cautiously, and 2) in real life require a lot of assistance for quite some time having you have to take over.
seeing a well produced video, and reading somewhat far fetched marketing descriptions in the design center - don't make things true.
Joer293
MODEL X P100DL
I wanted to appreciate Tesla, for increasing the price of autopilot enhanced. This will slightly reduce the depreciation many of us will see on recently delivered vehicles. The lucky few who get the hardware for the AP 1 price, are just that, lucky. (Unless Tesla software restricts the features to AP 1, on AP 2 hw, and charges them an upgrade fee)
why would anyone waste another $8,000 at delivery on something that is vapourware for a year+, and actively trying to be banned or regulated heavily by local and state governments? I'd say either lease, or purchase after delivery. I do wish I had the auto steer+ Camera in my brand new p100d. the windshield is configured for a dual camera setup, not the final triple camera design. Significant Depreciation before the first payment used to be a compromise accepted when buying ICE cars.
Right now I know my state committee and several others are trying to create a law to force tesla to software disable AP 1 features (blacklist database) on any road that is not a federal highway. And they want to ban it on any roads deemed not in perfect condition(construction zones, rush hour, bike lanes, crosswalks, faded paint, surface cracks, sign damage, light outages, etc) so that's practically 100% of roads around here. Politicians want to make AP useless, that's why Tesla's fine print includes the regulation warning. I would feel much better if there was a clause in Tesla's purchase agreement saying a customer will get a refund if the government ultimately blocks a very expensive purchased software feature to ever be used.
why would anyone waste another $8,000 at delivery on something that is vapourware for a year+, and actively trying to be banned or regulated heavily by local and state governments? I'd say either lease, or purchase after delivery. I do wish I had the auto steer+ Camera in my brand new p100d. the windshield is configured for a dual camera setup, not the final triple camera design. Significant Depreciation before the first payment used to be a compromise accepted when buying ICE cars.
Right now I know my state committee and several others are trying to create a law to force tesla to software disable AP 1 features (blacklist database) on any road that is not a federal highway. And they want to ban it on any roads deemed not in perfect condition(construction zones, rush hour, bike lanes, crosswalks, faded paint, surface cracks, sign damage, light outages, etc) so that's practically 100% of roads around here. Politicians want to make AP useless, that's why Tesla's fine print includes the regulation warning. I would feel much better if there was a clause in Tesla's purchase agreement saying a customer will get a refund if the government ultimately blocks a very expensive purchased software feature to ever be used.
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Your car lost 20K in value when you drove it off the lot. Because AP 2.0 is more money, your car might have lost another 2K.
Don't forget, AP is not that important to some people. There will be people searching for either an non-AP or AP 1.0 car so they don't buy something they don't want or need. The sky is most likely not falling.
Colby Boles
Member
I think the importance of AP for me or anyone else is directly related to its utility. AP1.0 is not that important to me because its limitations are significant enough that there are very few instances where I trust using it or where I feel the degree to which I have to supervise it is less work than just driving myself. If AP2.0 reaches level-4 some years down the road, AP becomes a very useful, game-changing feature. There are whole classes of things the car can do that just weren't possible before - in any car.
I'm not that concerned about resale value, or I wouldn't have bought a car like this in the first place. Part of what makes spending $150k on a car like this worthwhile compared to other automakers is the constant improvements through software that Tesla does. As of yesterday's announcement AP1.0 is end-of-lifed and I would predict that very little new development will be done on it except to fix (or disable) serious safety issues. To me, AP improvements are where the meat of the software is - the rest is just bells and whistles. What will my car be able to do a year or 3 years from now that is different than today? Be able to play music from Spotify? Fix some door opening quirks? I think the answers for the AP2.0 cars will be quite different.
Paying $8k for level-4 AP capabilities is a bargain in my book. No production vehicle has ever had this functionality. Some people here spend $8k on plastic films to protect the paint on this car. If Tesla pulls this off well, I think it will overshadow the fact that the car is electric. I would argue that is their strategy - build a car that can do things that no other car can and people can't even compare it on the basis of price, performance, range, luxury, appearance, etc. anymore.
I placed an order for a Model X on 10/1/16 with final confirmation on 10/8/16 and ordered the autopilot features as part of my options selection. I contacted my representative today and they told me that my car would be produced as-is. If I want the new features, I'll have to forfeit my $2,500 deposit, put down a new $2,500, and get back in line. They said that only orders placed after 10/17 would include the new hardware. I'm incredibly frustrated with the process so far. Though ordering was incredibly easy, I feel like I've been misled in several areas:
1 - I was told to hurry and order as the federal tax credit would expire on 12/31/16. This is not true.
2 - I was told that if I ordered in early October that my car would arrive sometime in early November. When I received my production confirmation, it said end of December / early January. When I called my sales rep, they basically shrugged it off and said they told me what their manager told them. How do they not know what their production schedule is??? They've verbally told me it would be late December, but I don't believe them now.
3 - I have now ordered a car that is "obsolete" even before I accept delivery. Tesla's website says that cars are currently in production with the new hardware - I don't see how that can be the case if they haven't made my car yet and are telling me that it won't include the new hardware.
What's going on here?
1 - I was told to hurry and order as the federal tax credit would expire on 12/31/16. This is not true.
2 - I was told that if I ordered in early October that my car would arrive sometime in early November. When I received my production confirmation, it said end of December / early January. When I called my sales rep, they basically shrugged it off and said they told me what their manager told them. How do they not know what their production schedule is??? They've verbally told me it would be late December, but I don't believe them now.
3 - I have now ordered a car that is "obsolete" even before I accept delivery. Tesla's website says that cars are currently in production with the new hardware - I don't see how that can be the case if they haven't made my car yet and are telling me that it won't include the new hardware.
What's going on here?
