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My Own Supercharger??

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This is an interesting question. I also would like to know if Tesla will encourage, or even allow, third party charging stations to use their proprietary connector. Availability of third party DC fast chargers with the Tesla connector will allow a more robust charging network, and for it to be built faster.

Roadster owners have gotten together and bought HPCs, then convinced a business owner to install it at a location they can all use. Model S owners could do the same with HPWCs, but a 20 kW DC charger could be used by cars without the twin charger option. They would need the supercharging option, but this is a much more useful option to buy, in my opinion. DC chargers can connect to the three phase power available at businesses and provide a balanced load,and they can be sized at a power level that is economically available at the business, anywhere from 20 to 120 kW.

You could even install a single phase 20 kW DC charger in your garage instead of an HPWC. Friends can recharge at the max rate for their return trip, even if they don't have twin chargers.

GSP

Not quite. Supercharger option is not offered on the 40KW Model S, only as an Option on the 60KW, and standard on the 85KW.

The HPWC works on all three, works faster on all 3 if you have the 2nd optional 10KW onboard charger, and a 100A single phase electrical service available. Some of this is technical, some of it is marketing/business decisions, I don't think you're going to get Tesla to change their decisions.

The SuperChargers estimated deployment cost was $250K per site, a lot of that cost is the electrical infrastructure work, and installation, but a significant part is the SuperCharger cabinet/hardware itself. It's never going to be for residential use, unless your residence is a commercial large building with 3 phase 120/208 service of a least 500Amps.
 
Yes, not all Model S's will have the supercharging option. But, the same can be said for the twin charger option. I personally would prefer to get the supercharger vs. the twin chargers, as I think it would be more useful.

Third party DC chargers do not have to have the same specifications as Tesla's superchargers. They can be made to use the same 80 A 240 V supply that the HPWC uses. They do not have to cost $250k to install. Look up the cost of installing 50 kW and 20 kW CHAdeMo DC chargers.

I do want to know if Tesla will support third party DC chargers.

GSP
 
How many square meters of panels do you have?

That's not quite the right question.

Solar panels are sold in different wattage densities. You can buy the same physical size panels with wattages from 150-900. The price per watt greatly increases with the density.

So his setup depends on may factors: wattage required, foot print available, panel technology at the time, what's available to the contractor from his suppliers, customers budget.

You could purchase a very small system is physical size, and it might never break even for the life of the car, large percentage of the market would not be willing to do this. Or you can cover your whole roof and possible pay it back in a few years. It all depends.
 
I think their more likely to come out with a Chademo to Model S adapter, than to release their proprietary connector/protocol for third parties. Last time someone checked with Tesla, they had no Chademo adapter plans either. As in most engineering companies, there's quite a bit of "NIH" syndrome (Not Invented Here) at Tesla. By coming out with a Chademo adapter, they would be supporting third party DC charging without releasing anything proprietary, and allowing the existing Chademo DC chargers to work with the Model S. personally, I don't think they have plans for either a Chademo adapter or third party DC charging.
 
It (the SAE DC recommended practice) actually has found one. The Chevy Spark EV.

Also, all the North American automakers, except Tesla, and all of the German automakers have announced they will use SAE J1772 DC charging.

GSP

Don't hold your breath waiting for one, you'll probably die first.
Tesla is the only one that's making a "real EV ", and the only one that really matters.
Chevy Spark? please. BMW? They still have a few more "programs" to run, to "evaluate" if EVs are "practical"
Like I said, don't hold your breath...
 
Even if not feasible to build my own supercharger station, I'm still interested in it for a possible commercial venture -- waiting for Tesla to roll out stations in some areas (such as Atlanta and other parts of the Southeast appears like it will be quite a long painful wait over the next few years.)

So we know from the NY times article which quotes a Tesla engineer, that the SC station is composed of 12 standard 10kW chargers stacked together.
Seems relatively straightforward - but I wonder what protection in the car circuitry and/or software would prevent one from using a custom built SC - if any?
 
Even if not feasible to build my own supercharger station, I'm still interested in it for a possible commercial venture -- waiting for Tesla to roll out stations in some areas (such as Atlanta and other parts of the Southeast appears like it will be quite a long painful wait over the next few years.)

So we know from the NY times article which quotes a Tesla engineer, that the SC station is composed of 12 standard 10kW chargers stacked together.
Seems relatively straightforward - but I wonder what protection in the car circuitry and/or software would prevent one from using a custom built SC - if any?

"J B Straubel" isn't just "another engineer", he's the head designer of the Tesla Model S: JB Straubel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's signaling protocol on the pilot signal which has to be reverse engineered, it's basically J-1772 protocol, but for the DC fast charging, it's much more complex, that has to communicate 2-way information, it's basically a data link. You also have to have the protocol definition, so you can query the Model S, to see if it has SuperCharger hardware (relays), then tell it to switch the power connections to the battery DC connections, then if you can accomplish that much, you must follow the charging protocol/commands, which usually are being generated by the Model S (usually the car controls the charging rate, etc). There are a handful of engineers who could gather the right equipment, and reverse engineer it, but it would have to be done in public during a supercharger session, that's takes real nerve, not to mention some risk to the car, supercharger and the people with high power DC. You would need to have a way to monitor the data connection on the Pilot signal, to start with... Since its unknown, that's the first challenge.. Probably similar to the SAE DC standard, but it's an unknown right now.
 
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"J B Straubel" isn't just "another engineer", he's the head designer of the Tesla Model S: JB Straubel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's signaling protocol on the pilot signal which has to be reverse engineered, it's basically J-1772 protocol, but for the DC fast charging, it's much more complex, that has to communicate 2-way information, it's basically a data link. You also have to have the protocol definition, so you can query the Model S, to see if it has SuperCharger hardware (relays), then tell it to switch the power connections to the battery DC connections, then if you can accomplish that much, you must follow the charging protocol/commands, which usually are being generated by the Model S (usually the car controls the charging rate, etc). There are a handful of engineers who could gather the right equipment, and reverse engineer it, but it would have to be done in public during a supercharger session, that's takes real nerve, not to mention some risk to the car, supercharger and the people with high power DC. You would need to have a way to monitor the data connection on the Pilot signal, to start with... Since its unknown, that's the first challenge.. Probably similar to the SAE DC standard, but it's an unknown right now.

I wouldn't want to reverse engineer the protocol without Tesla's permission. That might even be impossible if they are using some sort of encryption, and of course they would know you are charging the car at a non Tesla charging station as I'm sure they track your every move with the car anyway. Convincing Tesla above board to open up the SC protocol would be the way to go. After all, having more charging stations that Model S's could take advantage of would only help increase adoption of Tesla sales and EVs in general, wouldn't it?
 
I wouldn't want to reverse engineer the protocol without Tesla's permission. That might even be impossible if they are using some sort of encryption, and of course they would know you are charging the car at a non Tesla charging station as I'm sure they track your every move with the car anyway. Convincing Tesla above board to open up the SC protocol would be the way to go. After all, having more charging stations that Model S's could take advantage of would only help increase adoption of Tesla sales and EVs in general, wouldn't it?

They'll probably eventually publish/release their protocol, but probably not right now. They have a competitive advantage currently, that they need to maintain for a while, there are other EV manufacturers as well, and their probably not excited about them building adapters to use the SuperChargers they are installing & deploying. It works both ways. I think once they are dominant in the EV market, they'll look for third party partners, I wouldn't expect that until the next generation though (BlueStar). If you wanted one sooner, you'd have to reverse engineer it. Someone's going to do it anyway, but I doubt they'll publish their findings, no one wants to be sued by Tesla. You would also need the ability to purchase or have their custom connectors manufactured as well, and it's questionable when or if they'll do that as well. They never did for the Roadster, though a few managed to make copies that work (although at a very high price)
 
Even if not feasible to build my own supercharger station, I'm still interested in it for a possible commercial venture -- waiting for Tesla to roll out stations in some areas (such as Atlanta and other parts of the Southeast appears like it will be quite a long painful wait over the next few years.)

So we know from the NY times article which quotes a Tesla engineer, that the SC station is composed of 12 standard 10kW chargers stacked together.
Seems relatively straightforward - but I wonder what protection in the car circuitry and/or software would prevent one from using a custom built SC - if any?

CHAdeMo and J1772 DC fast chargers are commercially available from AeroVironment, Eaton, Clipper Creek, and other third parties. I would contact them and ask if they would sell you one with a Tesla connector. They would also have info on the electric service needed, so you could get a quote to have that installed. No need to wait for a a Tesla version to become available.

GSP
 
CHAdeMo and J1772 DC fast chargers are commercially available from AeroVironment, Eaton, Clipper Creek, and other third parties. I would contact them and ask if they would sell you one with a Tesla connector. They would also have info on the electric service needed, so you could get a quote to have that installed. No need to wait for a a Tesla version to become available.

GSP

That would be the second best choice, although surely it wouldn't be able to charge nearly as fast as an actual Tesla supercharger.
 
I an not an EE but my guess is superchargers do use the same chargers as I in the car. I would bet the 90kw supercharger is 9 units , 3 per phase. The 120kw future units mentiined by Tesla will be 12, 4 per phase.

That's correct from what I've learned.
The Tesla Supercharger power source comes from a large oil-cooled transformer, a 500 kVA unit (VA are similar to W), with a 12 kV primary feed, an output of 480 V / 277V 3 phase weighing nearly 4500 lbs. At fullpower delivery, each vehicle draws less than 15 Amps current from the 12 kV feeder thru this transformer. That is not a really serious load in the greater scheme of things, and allows multiple vehicles to charge at thesame time at one location. The refrigerator-sized enclosure houses nine 10 kW chargers, identical to the one used in the MS, located under its rear seat.

This info comes from photos taken at the Folsom SC site, and from transformer nameplate markings.
The extra charger works in a redundant fashion in case of overheating or a failed unit. N+1 redundancy produces higher availability.


In any case, they deliver prodigious power; I've seen 89kW delivered to the car! Whee! ;)
 
The Tesla Supercharger power source comes from a large oil-cooled transformer, a 500 kVA unit (VA are similar to W), with a 12 kV primary feed, an output of 480 V / 277V 3 phase weighing nearly 4500 lbs. At fullpower delivery, each vehicle draws less than 15 Amps current from the 12 kV feeder thru this transformer. That is not a really serious load in the greater scheme of things, and allows multiple vehicles to charge at thesame time at one location. The refrigerator-sized enclosure houses nine 10 kW chargers, identical to the one used in the MS, located under its rear seat.

A 277V L-N voltage on a 3-phase wye would seem to be at odds with Tesla's spec of 80-265V input on the chargers used in the car.
 
SAE DC adapter might be more likely than CHAdeMO...

Ok, so then we need a third-party CHAdeMO to SAE DC adapter too ;)

I can just picture the string of adapters lying on the ground :tongue:

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in europe same signaling as j1772 dc, not same plug
in europe it will be a Mennekes+frankenplug add-on

stupid because mennekes can already do dc without the add-on

Yeah, but just 140A (DC-mid). The add-on delivers 200A (DC-high), so one could theoretically deliver 340A using both DC-mid+high. The Tesla connector is good for 250A.

Still, DC-mid @ 140A is better than the current CHAdeMO plugs @ 125A.
 
Gotta' remember that a Supercharger doesn't use the single or twin on-board units at all. It a direct feed of up to 250 amps to the pack, at whatever pack voltage is when initially connected (345++).

The $2000 premium for the 60kWh option to accomodate a Supercharger is the high current bus bars/cables and necessary switching circuitry.

So that "refrigerator sized box" is fed 480 or 277 V from the secondary of that monster 500 kVA xfmr, depending on what it's designed for. I'm guessing 277, since that not too big of a departure from a 240 V rms residential line voltage level. Three or four of the 12 would be wired on each L-N, to all are evenly balanced.