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My request that the Arizona Attorney General's office investigate Tesla's changes to Ludicrous Mode

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I'll gather some additional power logging similar to what I have provided above. I also have a cable for CANBUS logging, I'll dig it out and do some of that as well.

Back in the older "662HP" thread i recall we determined that the V2 batteries were capable of 1600A and the V3 were 1620A with MBR and Ludi. That thread is north of 200 pages, and as you said, search on this site is...lacking. That is all old info from a different time so it may no longer be relevant.
 
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His post was long, but good so worth answer, especially after multiple requests. I just needed the time.


Here is my short answer:

When I went to the strip I consistently ran between 11.31 and 11.55. But my peak kW had even more variation and it didn't correlate well with the ET. I think it ranged from 454 to 435. Unfortunately I didn't save that info because I didn't really care about it. I knew it was just a peak one time number, I didn't know the resolution, and I couldn't easily plot and calculate the curve, or more importantly the area under the curve. And really I just didn't care. To me real life is what it says on the time slip -- not some number reading a single peak number from a single time slice on my iphone.

a one time peak kW number is not a great proxy for overall car acceleration performance. It's like assessing your round of golf by measuring your longest drive.

And anyway none of us can usually use that one moment kW peak because 99% of the time we are all driving around between 90% and 60% SOC with cool battery temps which itself decreases the peak kW substantially.

Here is my long answer:

Let's say GM decides to make a special, 700hp camaro. During development the engineers will have no trouble building a test mule that makes 700hp from the existing supercharged vehicle. The team will know from previous testing the static torque limit of the transmission, differential, drive and axle shafts, etc. They will also have some estimates of the durability of these components at different load levels. They will then perform extensive testing to understand if these parts need to be upgraded to withstand the new power levels. When they get a failure mode that is within the estimated warranty period, they will either improve the failed component, or decrease the load (reduce the power level, etc.) so that the failure rate is within the established (company policy) limit. For low volume, this often means accepting higher planned warranty repair cost...it is a balance of concerns and costs and each market segment requires a different balance.

and how many years have gone by when they did all this? Relying on how many years of building cars with transmissions and superchargers and clutches and differentials? Luckily Tesla doesn't wait they do it the SV way and just ship it out. We are the beneficiaries of that but also have to live with the downside. They didn't "perform extensive" testing enough on the perforated seats, or the sunroof, or the door handles, or some of the early drive units. But lucky for us, and their shareholders, they shipped it anyway, and 99% of it worked great, and remaining 1% they tweaked later. Welcome to the bleeding edge.

ALL these decisions happen BEFORE the vehicle is sold to the customer. If, after 6 months, GM finds out the new model destroys it's transmission in 5000 miles, they get to pay for warranty repair for a lot of Camaros. The cost of that type of mistake could easily wipe out 100% of the profit from such a project. That level of fail is very rare because the ramifications are so serious for the company.
THAT'S WHY THEY DO THE TESTING BEFORE THEY SELL THE VEHICLE.

transmission actually failing in 5000 miles =/ a few outlier use cases that lowered their drivetrain's projected MTBF in some still unknown way -- and they never actually failed -- they just triggered some prophylactic mitigation measures.

What they DON'T get to do, is ask everyone to bring their car back to the dealer so it can be detuned to only make 650hp in the interest of GM's warranty cost.

Does the car still meet advertised specs?

Who cares what it says on the dyno if it still meets advertised specs?

Here's what happened in Tesla's case (and maybe someone can help me with the numbers). Tesla developed a P90D vehicle that made X kW and achieved a 2.X sec 0-60 launch. One can only assume they tested and accepted the cost estimated for that level of power.

I would say that they made a car and advertised it with a certain 0-60 time. They never advertised the kW. The issue is: does the car meet that 0-60 time?

Next, . . .They announce the Ludicrous mode and start selling vehicles (and retrofits), Unfortunately, it seems the increased loads of the launch are creating more failures in the market than planned. (My suspicion is that the engineers involved had a pretty accurate idea of what would be failing and said as much.) So obviously, Tesla failed to properly test this product (the aptly named, ludicrous upgrade) and now wish they could change the product to save themselves some warranty cost and bad reputation that usually follows companies that release products that break.

I don't know that they had any actual failures. I think they just projected it and took measures to mitigate the projected failure rate for those use cases that would have accelerated wear. Sounds like perfectly good business sense so long as the car stays in spec and meets advertised claims. I don't see any basis for outrage. They didn't advertise a certain peak kW. That was not a spec.

And anyway none of us can usually use that peak kW because 99% of the time we are all driving around between 90% and 60% SOC with cool battery temps which itself decreases the peak kW more than the LM limit.

Their first idea, you will recall, was to simply reduce the power available to below what was initially claimed.
No they didn't do it for all cars -- it was only for a very few cars that had certain use extreme use cases -- launching with MBP every morning on the way to school. And there were only a small handful of those cases. Everyone else had no changes at all.

That was turning into a PR disaster, so soon Mr. Tweets indicated they had learned that lesson and would revert to the original power level. Let's pause for a minute and dwell on what happened there. In the face of bad press, Tesla changed course. Your assertion that this AG complaint or small claims case is a waste of time seems to ignore this clear evidence to the contrary.

The change only affected those who did things like launched with MBP every day.

In my view the orginal change was better -- the limit only applied to the few people who needed it based on their extreme driving habits. And if they wanted to remedy the limit it they could bear the cost of their extreme driving habits and get a new flux capacitor or whatever was at risk from their extreme driving habits -- or they could have a discussion with Tesla as to whether their driving habits were in the range of normal to be covered under warranty.

Unfortunately, when they finally did update the power to originally advertised levels, they added some other BS to make the power beyond access unless the customer jumps through hoops to engage a launch mode. A different means to their end, and possibly a legal defense. But in this court of public opinion, it will continue to irritate anyone who was ripped off by such bait and switch tactics.

You always had to jump through hoops to get the peak kW. Namely you had to charge to 100% SOC and engage MBP and let MBP warm up -- sometimes a long time.

Each of those is much more hassle than doing the LM two step shuffle.

The bottom line is that I see thousands of lines and hours of smart people's time wasted on crying and complaining about limiting a powertools peak readout number to launch mode.

But the fact is that if the car still meets specs there are no legal damages to be legally remedied, and since the LM limit is just one of a number of other limits anyway (SOC, MBP) it isn't likely to have any practical real world effect on anyone anyway.
 
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I don't know that they had any actual failures.
Why do you persist in posting erroneous information. You really don't have anything of value to add to this conversation.

When they switched to the current mode of limiting, several posters here had immediate messages to bring their cars in to have their batteries repaired, so there were actual failures.

And anyway none of us can usually use that peak kW because 99% of the time we are all driving around between 90% and 60% SOC with cool battery temps which itself decreases the peak kW more than the LM limit.
It doesn't affect just peak power. It affects the power you have available at all states of charge.
They never advertised the kW.
They did. They gave the motor shaft horsepower on their website. Of course the P85DL and P90DLv1 didn't actually make that horsepower. The P90DLv2 did. The problem was that the advertised hp wasn't enough to meet their claim of a 10.9 sec 1/4 mile. So instead of telling all the people they had already sold cars to that they didn't meet the advertised specs, they secretly increased the hp to what the P90DLV3 had and were finally able to meet the spec. So they never advertised the final horsepower to avoid angering previous buyers. Or they never advertised it because they knew the would ultimately have to cut it back. But they did implicitly advertise hp by advertising the 10.9 sec 1/4 mile.

Now that they no longer sell that model and have media reports of sub 11 sec 1/4 miles, they've decided they should reduce the current on post sale cars to protect their warranty bottom line.
 
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Why do you persist in posting erroneous information. You really don't have anything of value to add to this conversation.

When they switched to the current mode of limiting, several posters here had immediate messages to bring their cars in to have their batteries repaired, so there were actual failures.


It doesn't affect just peak power. It affects the power you have available at all states of charge.

They did. They gave the motor shaft horsepower on their website. Of course the P85DL and P90DLv1 didn't actually make that horsepower. The P90DLv2 did. The problem was that the advertised hp wasn't enough to meet their claim of a 10.9 sec 1/4 mile. So instead of telling all the people they had already sold cars to that they didn't meet the advertised specs, they secretly increased the hp to what the P90DLV3 had and were finally able to meet the spec. So they never advertised the final horsepower to avoid angering previous buyers. Or they never advertised it because they knew the would ultimately have to cut it back. But they did implicitly advertise hp by advertising the 10.9 sec 1/4 mile.

Now that they no longer sell that model and have media reports of sub 11 sec 1/4 miles, they've decided they should reduce the current on post sale cars to protect their warranty bottom line.

This thread might be over soon.

Tesla flew in two people to represent them in small claims court yesterday (Chandler, AZ). Went very well and the judge continued the case for a month to give Tesla time to implement the resolution Tesla came up with. They asked that nothing further be released until it is complete, and I agreed. They even withheld this from me until we met in court. Better communication could have cost Tesla less money and gone a long way to promote better customer relations.

Will post updates as I can.
 
This thread might be over soon.

Tesla flew in two people to represent them in small claims court yesterday (Chandler, AZ). Went very well and the judge continued the case for a month to give Tesla time to implement the resolution Tesla came up with. They asked that nothing further be released until it is complete, and I agreed. They even withheld this from me until we met in court. Better communication could have cost Tesla less money and gone a long way to promote better customer relations.

Will post updates as I can.

Wow! The suspense over the next month to see how Tesla proposes to resolve this might just kill me. ;)
 
This thread might be over soon.

Tesla flew in two people to represent them in small claims court yesterday (Chandler, AZ). Went very well and the judge continued the case for a month to give Tesla time to implement the resolution Tesla came up with. They asked that nothing further be released until it is complete, and I agreed. They even withheld this from me until we met in court. Better communication could have cost Tesla less money and gone a long way to promote better customer relations.

Will post updates as I can.

Way to cost the company useless amounts of money so you personally can feel vindicated... By your own admission this is not the first time you've used litigation to rake a company over the proverbial coals... I'd hate to ever have you as a customer, you're clearly not worth it...

Yikes...

Jeff
 
This Is a win for ALL customers, and helps Tesla get its head out of its own arse...don't try to claim otherwise in frustration that the OPs methods were successful despite many forum claims to the contrary.

Why don't you guys tell him he's wasting his time again?! Oh, right...

Coming from you, I'm not surprised... You're in that small, but obscenely vocal, minority who clearly has it out for Tesla. I'm still not sure what they did to you but the grudge some of you clearly cary is just ridiculous.

We all knew there would eventually be thousands of owners the company could do without as the brand matured and more cars were sold, it was inevitable... I, for one, misjudged the potential pettiness of some...

The car meets the advertised specifications. End. Of. Story. Sadly that apparently has been lost on some of you...

Jeff
 
This thread might be over soon.

Tesla flew in two people to represent them in small claims court yesterday (Chandler, AZ). Went very well and the judge continued the case for a month to give Tesla time to implement the resolution Tesla came up with. They asked that nothing further be released until it is complete, and I agreed. They even withheld this from me until we met in court. Better communication could have cost Tesla less money and gone a long way to promote better customer relations.

Will post updates as I can.

I'm very interested in the outcome, as I'm considering the small claims court avenue for my issue. I've been waiting almost 80 days now and no response from Tesla regarding my problem, and I have all the evidence to show that there was negligence on their part.

Summary. My car Model S P90DL came off the line on June 28th with 1088792-00-A, but the battery was found faulty. In their heist to have me picked as soon as possible, they replaced it with 1063792-00-A and then I paid for it and pick it up. All this is documented in my file under the VIN. I'm asking for them to put back my 1088792-00-A as that is what the Model S was built with, and even their online parts data base for June 2016 says that all P90DL should only include 1088792-00-A as the older 1063792-00-A was reserved for the 90D or P90D. I have the entire flow of communication, including date and print screens as evidence, but so far there has been no communication from anyone at Tesla.
 
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This thread might be over soon.

Tesla flew in two people to represent them in small claims court yesterday (Chandler, AZ). Went very well and the judge continued the case for a month to give Tesla time to implement the resolution Tesla came up with. They asked that nothing further be released until it is complete, and I agreed. They even withheld this from me until we met in court. Better communication could have cost Tesla less money and gone a long way to promote better customer relations.

Will post updates as I can.
Wow!! Very cool!!!

It's awesome you took this unselfish effort to help protect all Tesla owners from Tesla using over the air updates to prevent warranty issues, at the expense of downgrading performance that you purchased. Very Very cool! Thanks so much! We can use this precedence going forward if Tesla ever tries this BS again.

If I ever have the chance to meet you - you won't be paying for the drinks.
 
I'm very interested in the outcome, as I'm considering the small claims court avenue for my issue. I've been waiting almost 80 days now and no response from Tesla regarding my problem, and I have all the evidence to show that there was negligence on their part.

Summary. My car Model S P90DL came off the line on June 28th with 1088792-00-A, but the battery was found faulty. In their heist to have me picked as soon as possible, they replaced it with 1063792-00-A and then I paid for it and pick it up. All this is documented in my file under the VIN. I'm asking for them to put back my 1088792-00-A as that is what the Model S was built with, and even their online parts data base for June 2016 says that all P90DL should only include 1088792-00-A as the older 1063792-00-A was reserved for the 90D or P90D. I have the entire flow of communication, including date and print screens as evidence, but so far there has been no communication from anyone at Tesla.
Just curious... what did you pay for? Shouldn't a faulty battery be a free warranty issue?

And yes you should not be accepting anything short of the 1088792 battery. Though it does come with the risk of breakage if you push it to hard. I am hoping that the efforts of @azdryheat may result in a fix to that issue, that will allow you to drive it any way you want, and still have the power to meet the specs.

What a difference between the V3 108 battery and the V1 106 versions. Not only more power - but better range. When I had the V1 the range degradation was very poor and consistent. Now with the V3 I have not loss one mile in 9 months. Though the entire time I battled Tesla over the V1 range issue - Tesla kept telling me it was normal for range loss to occur. Which physics supports up to a point. Range degradation should not happen quickly. And with the V3 - after 9 months - it is not happening at all ( yet ) .
 
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Way to cost the company useless amounts of money so you personally can feel vindicated... By your own admission this is not the first time you've used litigation to rake a company over the proverbial coals... I'd hate to ever have you as a customer, you're clearly not worth it...

Yikes...

Jeff
Geesh @jeffro01 - I thought you turned the page on your personal attacks on people?

You are now back on my "ignore worthy" list to stay.
 
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Just curious... what did you pay for? Shouldn't a faulty battery be a free warranty issue?

And yes you should not be accepting anything short of the 1088792 battery. Though it does come with the risk of breakage if you push it to hard. I am hoping that the efforts of @azdryheat may result in a fix to that issue, that will allow you to drive it any way you want, and still have the power to meet the specs.

What a difference between the V3 108 battery and the V1 106 versions. Not only more power - but better range. When I had the V1 the range degradation was very poor and consistent. Now with the V3 I have not loss one mile in 9 months. Though the entire time I battled Tesla over the V1 range issue - Tesla kept telling me it was normal for range loss to occur. Which physics supports up to a point. Range degradation should not happen quickly. And with the V3 - after 9 months - it is not happening at all ( yet ) .

I didn't catch the incorrect battery placed in my Model S until 8 months later... They have said nothing even thought I have presented them with all the evidence four time now through my owner advisor (i.e., printouts of everything).

82 days later, no response. I keep hearing "My owner advisor has not heard anything back from Fremont as of yet". I'm to the point where I think I need to take another course of action. All I want is the correct battery installed 1088792-00-A, just as thought it came off the line back in June 2016. The issue is that they replaced it with the wrong part number (and even their part systems indicates that very clearly), and it's all documented in their service system under my VIN.

Beyond going through my Owner Advisor, is there anyone else I can get assistance from within Tesla? Anyone know of a contact how can help resolve the issue?
 
Way to cost the company useless amounts of money so you personally can feel vindicated... By your own admission this is not the first time you've used litigation to rake a company over the proverbial coals... I'd hate to ever have you as a customer, you're clearly not worth it...

Yikes...

Jeff

Jeff,

I will receive the exact amount of zero dollars for this. I also offered to cover all my costs and not ask Tesla for reimbursement. Going to take me a long time to get rich.

And personally I think it is the other party who has raked people over the coals.
 
Jeff,

I will receive the exact amount of zero dollars for this. I also offered to cover all my costs and not ask Tesla for reimbursement. Going to take me a long time to get rich.

And personally I think it is the other party who has raked people over the coals.

No, but you are costing Tesla wayyy more than zero dollars for absolutely no justifiable reason at all... NONE. The car performs AS ADVERTISED which is something a few of you simply cannot get through your heads no matter how many times it's repeated to you...

Some people just love litigation for some odd and unexplainable reason... Perhaps Tesla will appreciate this and blacklist you... Some customers aren't worth the effort.

Jeff
 
I didn't catch the incorrect battery placed in my Model S until 8 months later... They have said nothing even thought I have presented them with all the evidence four time now through my owner advisor (i.e., printouts of everything).

82 days later, no response. I keep hearing "My owner advisor has not heard anything back from Fremont as of yet". I'm to the point where I think I need to take another course of action. All I want is the correct battery installed 1088792-00-A, just as thought it came off the line back in June 2016. The issue is that they replaced it with the wrong part number (and even their part systems indicates that very clearly), and it's all documented in their service system under my VIN.

Beyond going through my Owner Advisor, is there anyone else I can get assistance from within Tesla? Anyone know of a contact how can help resolve the issue?

@JonMc is who you need to reach out to here for this...

Jeff
 
Coming from you, I'm not surprised... You're in that small, but obscenely vocal, minority who clearly has it out for Tesla. I'm still not sure what they did to you but the grudge some of you clearly cary is just ridiculous.
No, the rest of us just got tired of talking about it, and dealing with the several pro-tesla trolls.

We all knew there would eventually be thousands of owners the company could do without as the brand matured and more cars were sold, it was inevitable... I, for one, misjudged the potential pettiness of some...
Tens of thousands of dollars given to Tesla to deliver something based on a bunch of lies, which they didn't deliver anyway, is not "petty"

The car meets the advertised specifications. End. Of. Story. Sadly that apparently has been lost on some of you...

Jeff
The hell it does... Stop trolling us.
 
I didn't catch the incorrect battery placed in my Model S until 8 months later... They have said nothing even thought I have presented them with all the evidence four time now through my owner advisor (i.e., printouts of everything).

82 days later, no response. I keep hearing "My owner advisor has not heard anything back from Fremont as of yet". I'm to the point where I think I need to take another course of action. All I want is the correct battery installed 1088792-00-A, just as thought it came off the line back in June 2016. The issue is that they replaced it with the wrong part number (and even their part systems indicates that very clearly), and it's all documented in their service system under my VIN.

Beyond going through my Owner Advisor, is there anyone else I can get assistance from within Tesla? Anyone know of a contact how can help resolve the issue?
Wow... that is very poor customer service. Looks from your info that you are in CA? If so, after all this time and no response from Tesla, I would contact CDSP. Unfortunately CDSP has been the only way for me to get Tesla to act on warranty issues.