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My request that the Arizona Attorney General's office investigate Tesla's changes to Ludicrous Mode

AWDtsla

Active Member
Mar 3, 2013
4,266
3,960
NE
Great. Now Tesla is going to add language that if you race your car the warranty is void. Thanks dude.

LOL, The car does 10.9 in the quarter, take our word for it! Oh, and if you try it, we will void your warranty, after you run a 11.5.

They can add whatever language they want, as long as they act ethically and fairly, which would be quite a change for them.
 

azred

Active Member
Apr 12, 2016
1,903
2,203
Chandler, AZ
I agree completely. I clicked on this thread thinking something had been announced.

The Consumer Protection Section of the AG's Office receives thousands of complaints against all kinds of companies every year. They send the form letter the OP received in every instance. If asked, it is their policy to not disclose whether they are investigating any particular company. If they are conducting an investigation, it may or may not result in legal action. At any rate, it is likely to be a long time before it is known whether an investigation is underway.
Well stated. The title of the thread is absurd.
 

Pruitt

Pontificating the obvious
Jun 27, 2014
511
606
Casper WY
NO mechanical device will survive constant maximum-performance demands for an extended period of time, be it cars, airplanes, motorcycles, locomotives or pretty much anything else, because they're designed to be reliable in the normal-use case, with occasional, short-time max-performance output. But all of those devices are sold quoting maximum-performance statistics.

If you try to win a court case based on constantly demanding top performance out of your Tesla, you will most probably lose. You almost certainly would lose on appeal, if you got a judge stupid enough to find in your favor. Why? If you are constantly racing your Tesla, you're using it for a purpose for which is was not intended. IT IS A PASSENGER AUTOMOBILE! It isn't an Indycar. It's designed for transportation, not racing. As such, an occasional max-performance situation might arise, but it would take a LONG time to trigger the Tesla performance-reduction software controls under those circumstances.

If you treated any ICE vehicle like you apparently do your Teslas, you would relatively quickly lose your warranty because of racing. You would, more to the point, also lose performance rather quickly because of drivetrain deterioration. Would you then go sue the ICE maker because you've lost performance? You'd lose there for the same reason you'll lose to Tesla - that unintended purpose thing I mentioned above.

If you want to use the maximum performance capabilities of your Tesla every time you turn on the car, I suppose Tesla should give you the option to either not abuse the car or lose your warranty.
 

n2mb_racing

Active Member
Jun 14, 2014
1,160
733
durham, NC
Thanks for pursuing this action. I have also tried to get any response from my service center, and it has been underwhelming. I've been told "the car is performing as designed", after it lost 35 HP due to the latest software update. I just want the original power that I paid for back!

Kudos on working for a resolution!
 

jeffro01

Active Member
Jan 30, 2013
2,693
1,959
Teller County CO
And what might that be? The bigger picture requires Tesla to act dishonestly and unethically?

Just when I think we're starting to get along for a bit you decide to be "that guy" again... I think I've been exceptionally clear in multiple threads lately about my views on Tesla and their cavalier approach to ethics and communication which have seemingly become a bigger problem as of late...

My bigger picture comment was to remind people that while we can all agree or disagree about Tesla's ethics as of late, dragging the government into this is a no win step that Tesla just doesn't need. Yeah I get that people need recourse and such but keep in mind the OP HAD recourse and actually had a deal that was mutually agreed upon until Tesla asked for an NDA which is a perfectly reasonable step. The OP sees an opportunity to turn the screws just a little more for a stated reason along the lines of "I wanted to help everyone" which naturally people soak up like a sponge... Yet that detail seems to already be lost...

I'm personally tired of seeing these forums turn into an extortion tool to be used against Tesla when you don't get what you think you're entitled to... The examples here over the last year are too many to count... Tesla keeps trying to do the right thing which make the tactic all that more popular because it works... That doesn't make it right in my opinion.

Now, if Tesla would pull it's proverbial head out of it's proverbial hind parts then perhaps things would be different...

Jeff
 

u00mem9

Member
Jun 8, 2016
943
981
USA
NO mechanical device will survive constant maximum-performance demands for an extended period of time, be it cars, airplanes, motorcycles, locomotives or pretty much anything else, because they're designed to be reliable in the normal-use case, with occasional, short-time max-performance output. But all of those devices are sold quoting maximum-performance statistics.

If you try to win a court case based on constantly demanding top performance out of your Tesla, you will most probably lose. You almost certainly would lose on appeal, if you got a judge stupid enough to find in your favor. Why? If you are constantly racing your Tesla, you're using it for a purpose for which is was not intended. IT IS A PASSENGER AUTOMOBILE! It isn't an Indycar. It's designed for transportation, not racing. As such, an occasional max-performance situation might arise, but it would take a LONG time to trigger the Tesla performance-reduction software controls under those circumstances.

If you treated any ICE vehicle like you apparently do your Teslas, you would relatively quickly lose your warranty because of racing. You would, more to the point, also lose performance rather quickly because of drivetrain deterioration. Would you then go sue the ICE maker because you've lost performance? You'd lose there for the same reason you'll lose to Tesla - that unintended purpose thing I mentioned above.

If you want to use the maximum performance capabilities of your Tesla every time you turn on the car, I suppose Tesla should give you the option to either not abuse the car or lose your warranty.

Tesla can do whatever they want...as long as they figure it out BEFORE they cash the check. The entire issue is after the sale, they would like to change the product to reduce their potential for warranty cost. They (apparently) just need customer class action suits and a little bad press to knock that stupid thought out of their collective heads.

They are going to get it. State AGs are pretty effective at the veiled threat game, and this WILL educate Tesla on acting in their own best interest. We likely will never know all the details in the background but the timing is excellent. I can guarantee you they have realized internally that if they attempt this crap when M3 volumes are moving out the door, the cost in defense and PR will greatly exceed any savings on the warranty side.
 

AWDtsla

Active Member
Mar 3, 2013
4,266
3,960
NE
Tesla can do whatever they want...as long as they figure it out BEFORE they cash the check. The entire issue is after the sale, they would like to change the product to reduce their potential for warranty cost. They (apparently) just need customer class action suits and a little bad press to knock that stupid thought out of their collective heads.

They are going to get it. State AGs are pretty effective at the veiled threat game, and this WILL educate Tesla on acting in their own best interest. We likely will never know all the details in the background but the timing is excellent. I can guarantee you they have realized internally that if they attempt this crap when M3 volumes are moving out the door, the cost in defense and PR will greatly exceed any savings on the warranty side.

His argument comes from the same questionable ethics as Tesla, trying to spin the issue into something it's not. Everyday driving with recommended practices and no modifications is causing the problems, not track use, or any kind of abuse for that matter. As well as the power reductions affecting everyday performance - for those who ever experienced that promised performance as well. If you got a v1 P90D, well you're just a sucker, because it never performed to spec.

<------
 

Walta

Member
Oct 30, 2015
333
730
san diego CA
His argument comes from the same questionable ethics as Tesla, trying to spin the issue into something it's not. Everyday driving with recommended practices and no modifications is causing the problems, not track use, or any kind of abuse for that matter. As well as the power reductions affecting everyday performance - for those who ever experienced that promised performance as well. If you got a v1 P90D, well you're just a sucker, because it never performed to spec.

<------
True.

I would love to know how many V1 owners have already worked out some kind of deal with Tesla to compensate them? I would expect there are quite a few - and they all signed the NDA, so are not here commenting on this issue. It takes the efforts of @azdryheat to inform others that something can be done, by refusing to sign the NDA and making the issue public.
Tesla is doing the big company thing and handling the issue the cheapest way possible. Which you can't fault them for. At this point, with the information in this forum, V1 owners should know they have options.
 
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Pruitt

Pontificating the obvious
Jun 27, 2014
511
606
Casper WY
Tesla can do whatever they want...as long as they figure it out BEFORE they cash the check. The entire issue is after the sale, they would like to change the product to reduce their potential for warranty cost.
Are you the ONE GUY Tesla never told about the over-the-air updates that would be occurring after the sale? I suspect your "...issue is after the sale..." argument might be a bit problematic.

During my 37 year career as an engineer, I've spent some time doing forensic engineering - mostly safety stuff, but product performance is in the mix as well. Discount that or not, as you please. But I don't think this is going to be the slam-dunk-in-your-favor resolution you seem to be expecting. The "reasonable person" standard often carries the day, to the surprise of those who demand to live at the far ends of the bell curve.
 

azdryheat

Member
Jul 6, 2016
405
580
Mesa, AZ
Are you the ONE GUY Tesla never told about the over-the-air updates that would be occurring after the sale? I suspect your "...issue is after the sale..." argument might be a bit problematic.

During my 37 year career as an engineer, I've spent some time doing forensic engineering - mostly safety stuff, but product performance is in the mix as well. Discount that or not, as you please. But I don't think this is going to be the slam-dunk-in-your-favor resolution you seem to be expecting. The "reasonable person" standard often carries the day, to the surprise of those who demand to live at the far ends of the bell curve.

This is what my owners manual says: Regular over-the-air updates add safety and navigation features, enhance performance and improve the driver experience.

Not sure how Tesla will argue that reducing power is any of these things. My position is that they did this to avoid fixing a problem they see developing. Instead of an improvement or recall, this is how they are handling it.

Not expecting a slam-dunk. I have been talking to Tesla over two months now. Very possible nobody will see anything from this.
 

Teslobserved

New Member
Mar 15, 2017
4
8
Anytown
... the OP HAD recourse and actually had a deal that was mutually agreed upon ...
Jeff

Okay, sounds pretty good ...

... until Tesla asked for an NDA ...
Jeff

Erm ... you kinda can't have both things. Cake and all.

If your description of events is accurate - on this point - you gotta re-consider your line of thinking.

This reads really poorly (like, shill-level) and taints some of your other valid points.

Find another hill to die on.
 
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Canuck

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2013
6,125
5,474
South Surrey, BC
It never ceases to amaze me how willing some people are to just bend over and take it and argue that you should just relax and enjoy it. It won't hurt as much if you just don't struggle. Fatalists.

That's big of you to attack people rather than comment on the issue. But then again, it sounds like you have experience in the area you talk about above and I sure don't, so I'll defer to your expertise.
 

azdryheat

Member
Jul 6, 2016
405
580
Mesa, AZ
Okay, sounds pretty good ...



Erm ... you kinda can't have both things. Cake and all.

If your description of events is accurate - on this point - you gotta re-consider your line of thinking.

This reads really poorly (like, shill-level) and taints some of your other valid points.

Find another hill to die on.

My discussion with Tesla never had a NDA until everything else was agreed to. Because without others I would not have had anywhere near the knowledge about what Tesla did, I did not want to sign it unless Tesla increased what they offered.
I actually want Tesla to re-instate what power level I had (for everyone) and then drop everything. I am not looking for a windfall, only fairness. Problem is everyone has a different idea of what that is. I will let this play out and see what happens. From the response I have been receiving, there are two very different points of view.
 

Teslobserved

New Member
Mar 15, 2017
4
8
Anytown
My discussion with Tesla never had a NDA until everything else was agreed to. Because without others I would not have had anywhere near the knowledge about what Tesla did, I did not want to sign it unless Tesla increased what they offered.
I actually want Tesla to re-instate what power level I had (for everyone) and then drop everything. I am not looking for a windfall, only fairness. Problem is everyone has a different idea of what that is. I will let this play out and see what happens. From the response I have been receiving, there are two very different points of view.

I have no idea what fairness looks like in this situation. But sure as Shinola I know what a mutual agreement is. "We agreed! ('cept we didn't)" is many things; none, one.
 

Canuck

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2013
6,125
5,474
South Surrey, BC
I am not looking for a windfall, only fairness.

Having been involved in countless settlement conferences, mediations and court cases, this statement comes down to one issue: the amount of money that needs to be paid to make it go away. That is what determines one's view of "fairness" -- money. In every case that settles, there's only one issue that needs to be agreed on by everyone: the amount of money. After that, all other issues can, and most often do, remain unresolved -- but the claim will go away. For insurers, who handle the defence of most of these types of claims, "a closed file is a good file". They need to stop bleeding legal fees and expenses which often exceed the amounts of the settlements.

All of these case come down to money since the first thing any good lawyer will tell his client is never go to trial over principles and settling is better than going to trial in most cases.
 

MP3Mike

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2016
16,236
36,624
Oregon
this statement comes down to one issue: the amount of money that needs to be paid to make it go away.

Why is everyone making it out like he is starting a class action law suit and trying to extort money out of Tesla?

What he has said his goals are seem perfectly reasonable to me. One option doesn't cost Tesla anything, at least not directly, the other has Tesla refunding him for an option he paid for that he no longer has as it was sold to him.

We have no idea how many people have made deals with Tesla already that are hidden by NDAs.
 

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