My request that the Arizona Attorney General's office investigate Tesla's changes to Ludicrous Mode

[Canuck]

Tesla could choose to be different.

No it can't. That's like saying a shark can choose not to be a shark.

It's the fact that these are unforced errors that is so painful to watch. They are doing more damage to the brand by letting everyone know that just because you paid for something and took delivery, doesn't mean you get to keep it.

Things like this are not a concern to corporations. It's not until you get into VW territory, or Apple's Foxconn suicide nets, that corporations become concerned about damage to the brand. And even then the reaction is to lift the rug and sweep.

This issue is also not anywhere near a storm that Tesla has to weather. In fact, it barely even classifies as a light sprinkle. I bet 99% of Tesla owners don't even know this issue exists.

I know the replies to me already: I'm an apologist for Tesla -- that none of what I say has any basis in fact -- and if we all just keep complaining Tesla will come around. But if not, they'll damage their brand irreparably and go under, right? Sorry but this is such naive thinking that it makes me laugh. I've watched far too many sharks to know how they act. No amount of complaining will change that.

 

[EV-lutioin]

Or, you could just enjoy your awesome car and move on....

 

[Tech_Guy]

Also - it actually reduced full power even when using launch mode. I was getting 508 kw prior to the power reduction removal - and now I am getting 500 kw max.

Didn't you report the same finding @Tech_Guy ?

I can confirm that even with launch mode the maximum power produced has been reduced as well previously my car would make 511KW of battery power and pull around 1620 amps now the car makes about 505 KW from the battery and 1605 amps. This reduction is max amps goes hand in hand with the reduction in max battery power and is also proof that Tesla's "performance restoring update" took power away from all owners, EVEN when in launch mode...

 

[Walta]

I can confirm that even with launch mode the maximum power produced has been reduced as well previously my car would make 511KW of battery power and pull around 1620 amps now the car makes about 505 KW from the battery and 1605 amps. This reduction is max amps goes hand in hand with the reduction in max battery power and is also proof that Tesla's "performance restoring update" took power away from all owners, EVEN when in launch mode...

@Tech_Guy Thanks for the info.

Now it would be interesting to know if the reduction to max power has now made the V3 cars unable to execute a 10 second quarter mile.

 

[bhzmark]

it would be interesting to know if the reduction to max power has now made the V3 cars unable to execute a 10 second quarter mile.

Yes. The fact of a mere change, even a decrease, isn't a basis for complaint. It must rise to the level of causing it to be unable to operate to advertised specs.

I still haven't seen any evidence of that. But if true, that is where someone might have a reasonable complaint.

Tesla can and should manage and tweak their battery and power systems as much as they can to maximize battery longevity -- as long as the car stays within specs.

Most tesla owners, even most P owners, would value significantly improved battery longevity more than a few hundredths which wld be evident only when they go to the drag strip once in a great while.

 

[oktane]

It's the fact that these are unforced errors that is so painful to watch. They are doing more damage to the brand by letting everyone know that just because you paid for something and took delivery, doesn't mean you get to keep it.

How many drive units were going to fail from 1600A usage? What would that cost in warranty repair dollars and what is the cost in reputation. We estimate these numbers in the industry and make decisions based on those estimates. These aren't safety matters, so it's just straight economics.

In this case, Tesla is betting that the lost value in brand reputation and customers from this post-delivery limitation is less than the warranty repair cost.

Tesla has been very vocal about how the backwards, 'old' auto industry just doesn't know how to innovate like Tesla. Well, part of that is the old OEMs with something to lose figure this stuff out during development because they know it's very expensive to find issues in the market.

Tesla didn't find this issue before they started selling the cars. Now they want customers to bear the 'cost'. (Actually, that is the most generous explanation...in reality, I suspect the engineers knew exactly how much power the drive unit could tolerate and that this was not going to last.)

I see it as a bad strategy. Now we have a long thread, letting everyone know:

1) Tesla may change the performance or features of your purchase unilaterally to serve their interests at a cost to your interests as a customer

2) Tesla doesn't have an effective validation method. In addition to being a new company, they are more comfortable with placing unproven designs in the marketplace than existing automakers.

3) The power level applied to Ludicrous Tesla vehicles exceeds the sustainable level the gearbox or some other components can tolerate. Thus, an off-warranty or second owner vehicle is at high risk of an expensive failure. This will have an obvious effect on the value of these vehicles.


Anyway, Tesla knows all this. Their current customer base includes a high percentage of 'true believers' that WILL accept this behavior. (And even defend it, as seen here). But, what about a model 3 buyer? Less disposable income, less able to absorb the cost of drive unit failure, etc...

Translation: Tesla doesn't give a *sugar* about me as a customer. They see me as a means to an end, or basically someone stupid enough to give them money. They fooled me once but not a second time. Their indignant attitude has cost them future sales from me and my family.

 

[Uncle Paul]

So many high performance cars throttle their owners torque to protect the drive lines.

Lots of super cars reduce the available torque in the lower gears to support longevity of their transmissions and drivelines.

This is something not advertised, but mostly revealed by magazines testing the cars with advanced electronic timing devices and g meter readings.

Lots of Superchargers and turbochargers turn down the boost under full throttle to safeguard the drivelines.

Don't see Tesla doing anything that other manufacturers already do. They are not trying to slow down the cars, but using their testing data to determine the optimum settings for each of their cars.

If their testing determines that continued full throttle starts will degrade the cars, they have three choices.
1. Accept the fact that so much power will result in early failure and accept the bad publicity that will come when customers complain their cars are not reliable.
2. Throttle the cars to still allow the maximum practicle and reliable performance and maintain warranty.
3. Notify their customers that after so many full throttle starts their warranty will be voided, and the owner shall take full responsibility for repair costs.

Just ignoring their latest testing data would be foolish.

Many of the highest performance manufacturers electronically limit their vehicles top speed for various reasons.

Tesla has notified all owners that from time to time they will issue updated software to change the capabilities of their cars. Some of these result in additonal performance or features, and only a few will reduce capabilities due to their latest technical findings.

Better to just enjoy our fantastic vehicles, and let Tesla be the Wizard behind the Green curtain.

Tesla...it drives like no other.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

No it can't. That's like saying a shark can choose not to be a shark.

Even an alcoholic can get success with AA.

Are you seriously suggesting Tesla can not improve their corporate culture? Play some internal whack-a-mole to fight bad behaviors?

Of course they can. Your blanket excusal for Tesla is nothing more than an excuse.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Don't see Tesla doing anything that other manufacturers already do. They are not trying to slow down the cars, but using their testing data to determine the optimum settings for each of their cars.

Except Tesla did it after selling the car. The world of difference.

 

[Pruitt]

I haven't noticed anyone complaining about changes when Tesla ADDS features through software changes...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I haven't noticed anyone complaining about changes when Tesla ADDS features through software changes...

There is an inherent difference between a company adding value to a product they have already sold vs. taking away value or changing to worse a product they have already sold. I thought that was obvious to anyone.

 

[TIppy]

Yes. The fact of a mere change, even a decrease, isn't a basis for complaint. It must rise to the level of causing it to be unable to operate to advertised specs.

I still haven't seen any evidence of that. But if true, that is where someone might have a reasonable complaint.

Tesla can and should manage and tweak their battery and power systems as much as they can to maximize battery longevity -- as long as the car stays within specs.

Most tesla owners, even most P owners, would value significantly improved battery longevity more than a few hundredths which wld be evident only when they go to the drag strip once in a great while.

Sources? Where is your polling data?
I would prefer to have my passing performance back that I use frequently to get around cars parked in the left lane.

You should let Tesla know about your ground breaking theories. They lost out on a HUGE advertising campaign by reducing power and increasing battery longevity secretly. These idiots have been pushing the performance of their cars. They have no idea what their customers want.

 

[EinSV]

@Tech_Guy Thanks for the info.

Now it would be interesting to know if the reduction to max power has now made the V3 cars unable to execute a 10 second quarter mile.

I haven't followed all of the developments on this so apologies if this has been gone over, but is there solid data (not extrapolations) on actual quarter mile times for a limited V2 or V3 without pano and lightly optioned? Or a V1 comparably equipped (other than Motor Trend's 10.9 second and Car and Driver's 11.1 second)?

 

[JRP3]

I haven't noticed anyone complaining about changes when Tesla ADDS features through software changes...

Tesla says the vehicles will improve over time, not that they'll take features away and reduce performance. How about Tesla deciding the window motors will last longer if they only go up and down once a day, and push that "improvement" to your car?

 

[oktane]

Tesla says the vehicles will improve over time, not that they'll take features away and reduce performance. How about Tesla deciding the window motors will last longer if they only go up and down once a day, and push that "improvement" to your car?

...or limit batteries to 80% charge....or anything else

 

[Pruitt]

How about Tesla deciding the window motors will last longer if they only go up and down once a day, and push that "improvement" to your car?

Careful what you say - I understand that Tesla folks read these forums. If we wind up with limited-use windows, we'll know who to thank for that idea!

 

[jeffro01]

Relax guys, Elon is trying his best to accelerate sustainable transport, by ripping off his customers. Thats the fastest way to do it, dont ya know?

Anyway, the only way to stop these practices is to ban Tesla direct sales and service. That will get Tesla to act like they should. I hate dealers with a passion, but they in a way prevent this software downgrade, and other nonsense.

Only a complete fool would advocate for the dealership model to get involved with what Tesla is trying to do. I say again, only a complete FOOL would do something like that...

Stealerships add nothing to the equation, they are nothing more than parasites on the free market concept when it comes to automobile sales. I will never understand how anyone could possibly think adding a layer of people who's only incentive is to make as much money as possible on each transaction regardless of what's good for the buyer, would somehow improve anything. It won't. It'll actually make things worse...

Some of you need to freaking relax... Take a deep breath and relax... The sky isn't falling, the world isn't ending, and no, Tesla isn't going anywhere anytime soon. I won't rehash my arguments against Tesla on the countergate issue except to say they screwed up, it happens.

Jeff

 

[jeffro01]

Translation: Tesla doesn't give a *sugar* about me as a customer. They see me as a means to an end, or basically someone stupid enough to give them money. They fooled me once but not a second time. Their indignant attitude has cost them future sales from me and my family.

Could you, and a few other owners, do us all a favor and sell your Tesla's and go back to whatever car brand you came from? Some of the whining here is just so ridiculous at times it's laughable. News flash, Tesla is a business who's goal is to make money for it's shareholders. That comes first. If you need someone to explain that to you then I can't help you. Does Tesla care about it's customers? As a company? I don't know. I can say for sure that there are employees within Tesla that sure as hell do. But again... In other news, water is wet...

Some of you really need to take a step back here... I had to do it... I had to in order to realize that surprisingly few Tesla owners actually know this site exists, much less read it... Truth is, not many do so the issues you think are so dire to the future of the brand or so catastrophic as to send Tesla tanking at any moment, don't even register on the radar for the vast majority of owners.

So again... Relax and take a deep breath...

Jeff

 

[u00mem9]

News flash, Tesla is a business who's goal is to make money for it's shareholders.

Seriously? Tesla has never had that goal, never stated they had that goal, and have demonstrated at every opportunity that they are not concerned about that goal.

Their goals are admirable, as are their products, but making money isn't one of them.

 

[Walta]

Could you, and a few other owners, do us all a favor and sell your Tesla's and go back to whatever car brand you came from? Some of the whining here is just so ridiculous at times it's laughable. News flash, Tesla is a business who's goal is to make money for it's shareholders. That comes first. If you need someone to explain that to you then I can't help you. Does Tesla care about it's customers? As a company? I don't know. I can say for sure that there are employees within Tesla that sure as hell do. But again... In other news, water is wet...

Some of you really need to take a step back here... I had to do it... I had to in order to realize that surprisingly few Tesla owners actually know this site exists, much less read it... Truth is, not many do so the issues you think are so dire to the future of the brand or so catastrophic as to send Tesla tanking at any moment, don't even register on the radar for the vast majority of owners.

So again... Relax and take a deep breath...

Jeff

For me, it is all so much simpler than is being portrayed. This is not at all a complaint of the car. The car is epic. This is simply the reaction of owners who bought the car - paid for certain options - and didn't get what they paid for. There is an effort by some of the owners to have Tesla compensate them. This thread is related to those owners efforts.

That being said - the information needed to support that effort would be related to the differences between the option sold versus the option delivered. As well as how the over the air updates have changed the option negatively over time. That information is most pertinent to the motivation of this thread.

All the rest makes for an interesting discussion on ethics and big business practices, which is cool.