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My Story: 3 kids, a Model S, cancelling my Model X, and a...Volvo?

Johan

Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Feb 9, 2012
7,495
9,771
Drammen, Norway
Can someone explain to me what e72mpg is in real world gas and electricity?

It's hard because a regular MPG to gallons per miles curve would not be linear, and when you're calculating the eMPG you have to assume this same anlierity to create this "equivalent" and actually rather artificial quantity. So that a LEAF that consumes 300 Wh/mile gets 112 MPG-e, while a Model S85 that consumes 360 Wh/mile gets 89 MPG-e while a RAV4 EV (very anaerodynamic) uses 440 Wh/mile and gets 76 MPG-e. So e72mpg is likely above 450 Wh/mile.
 

ABCCBA

Member
Dec 20, 2015
387
234
Somewhere
mikevbf, I don't know the technical definition of 'empg'. I guess I should learn that, too. Shown in a screenshot from the mobile app for our smartphones, for a longer trip that we took yesterday looked like for electricity and gas consumption.
Screenshot_20160312-142207.png
Can someone explain to me what e72mpg is in real world gas and electricity?
 

ankitmishra

Member
Sep 1, 2015
336
22
India
@Mike
Oh, I will take your word for it. I don't know where I read that or did I just felt that I read that. Upon checking I found that electric motor might stop after battery runs out i.e in 18 miles. Is the PHEV still better in power than ICE when that happens? Again, just curious. My knowledge is non existent in this matter.
 

elguapo

Supporting Member
Apr 24, 2013
1,173
2,509
Maryland
Good thoughts MidKidd. All make sense. I don't think the X could ever replace a Sequoia with respect to storage. Even if the X had fold flat second row, Sequoia is just much bigger. Tough comparison.

Volvo may be a better comparison, but at the end of the day, a Tesla can't compare to anything else and most buyers will have to make a compromise somewhere. For example, I can't stand the infotainment systems on Mercedes, BMW, Audi and Volvo and don't like the cockpits. Since that's where I spend most of my time, I put a lot of weight on that, as trivial as it may be to others.

I can't wait for my X, but from a utility perspective, I think of it more like a slightly bigger CRV or an MDX...Regardless, it is always helpful to have a good conversation around what people are willing to compromise on and why.
 

ABCCBA

Member
Dec 20, 2015
387
234
Somewhere
We have not had the battery completely run out of power, as the vehicle has regenerative capabilities: Two levels of brake regren, regen from the ICE and regen from the starter/generator. There are seven power selections from 'Pure' all electric to 'Save' no electric, just regen. The ICE engine is rated at 24 mpg and is the same 293 HP engine as the standard ICE. There is a lot to learn. It is definitely not an all electric Model X, but we were uncomfortable with a MX at this point in time and the wife is very happy with the Volvo, so I am very happy - Happy Wife, Happy Life. I am narrowing down my selection for a late model MS Dual Motor car, and I suspect it will be overwhelming to learn and drive.
@Mike
Oh, I will take your word for it. I don't know where I read that or did I just felt that I read that. Upon checking I found that electric motor might stop after battery runs out i.e in 18 miles. Is the PHEV still better in power than ICE when that happens? Again, just curious. My knowledge is non existent in this matter.
 

Johan

Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Feb 9, 2012
7,495
9,771
Drammen, Norway
Volvo may be a better comparison, but at the end of the day, a Tesla can't compare to anything else and most buyers will have to make a compromise somewhere. For example, I can't stand the infotainment systems on Mercedes, BMW, Audi and Volvo and don't like the cockpits. Since that's where I spend most of my time, I put a lot of weight on that, as trivial as it may be to others.

Wait, you drive more than 12 hours per day on average every day?
 

Roamer

Member
Aug 16, 2013
279
132
Mesa, Arizona, United States
We have not had the battery completely run out of power, as the vehicle has regenerative capabilities: Two levels of brake regren, regen from the ICE and regen from the starter/generator. There are seven power selections from 'Pure' all electric to 'Save' no electric, just regen. The ICE engine is rated at 24 mpg and is the same 293 HP engine as the standard ICE. There is a lot to learn. It is definitely not an all electric Model X, but we were uncomfortable with a MX at this point in time and the wife is very happy with the Volvo, so I am very happy - Happy Wife, Happy Life. I am narrowing down my selection for a late model MS Dual Motor car, and I suspect it will be overwhelming to learn and drive.

After reading all the selections and setting you listed above you will find the S or X to be incredibly simple. Once you go full EV it dramatically simplifies everything. I find it almost impossible to comprehend all the settings on my daughters Lexus GX 460 Luxury model. The number of settings and switches is mind numbing. One thing I really enjoy about the Tesla design is how automated everything is. The computer knows what to do and just does it for you.
 

mikevbf

Supporting Member
Feb 11, 2012
1,856
4,337
vermont
I come from a background of driving just a regular Highlander Hybrid. Of course I would be over joyed to get 86.9 mpg in my vehicle. What I have more trouble assessing is the 7kWH - 1.1kWh regen in addition to the gas to travel 19.3 miles. Is it as simple as that is about $1 of electricity which is about half a gallon of gas today which mean it took about .7 gallons of gas to go 19.3 miles which is about 26.7 mpg which is closer to what I get in my Highlander Hybrid. I am sure I made an error somewhere. Please help me get my head around it all you EV drivers.

mikevbf, I don't know the technical definition of 'empg'. I guess I should learn that, too. Shown in a screenshot from the mobile app for our smartphones, for a longer trip that we took yesterday looked like for electricity and gas consumption.View attachment 114715
 
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CarlK

Active Member
Mar 23, 2013
1,919
1,236
SF Bay Area
As someone who has owned a first gen 93' Ford Explorer and first gen 02' MDX and rode in my lunch partner's Cayenne GTS often I think going back to any ICE SUV is like going back to live in the cave for me. As for 3rd row seat spaciousness let's be real I don't think you can get anything better than the X from a garageable SUV.
 
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ABCCBA

Member
Dec 20, 2015
387
234
Somewhere
mikevbf - I had not done the math, but will be glad to share in the experiment. Our energy cost here is about $0.12/kwh. Our gasoline is about $1.75/gal. If the trip used 7.0KWh, but regenerated 1.1KWH, the Net Energy was 5.9KWh * $0.12 =$0.71 in electricity. The vehicle used 0.2 gallons @ $1.75 = $0.35. Total cost was $1.06 for 19.3 miles. $1.75/$1.06 * 19.3 = 31.8 empg for this trip. This vehicle functions as both a hybrid and a PEV. Meaning, the ICE can recharge the battery while driving, if the power selector is set to do so. Additionally, there is a Plug-In Level 2 port that the battery can be recharged from the electrical outlet at home, thus not use the ICE to recharge. Thus, since most everything we do is within 5 miles of the house, we can run on all electric 'Pure EV' mode and never fire up the ICE. I have not done a full battery test of the 18 mile range to see what the eMPG rating is. It will be fascinating, when we do a drive like that to see how it compares to the energy consumption of the MS or MX. But again, it seems to be rather high because in the four days that we have driven it, the eMPG average is 72. If anything, this is a good primer to learn how to be extremely energy efficient in driving so that when we do go all electric, we might be able to get rated mileage or more.
I come from a background of driving just a regular Highlander Hybrid. Of course I would be over joyed to get 86.9 mpg in my vehicle. What I have more trouble assessing is the 7kWH - 1.1kWh regen in addition to the gas to travel 19.3 miles. Is it as simple as that is about $1 of electricity which is about half a gallon of gas today which mean it took about .7 gallons of gas to go 19.3 miles which is about 26.7 mpg which is closer to what I get in my Highlander Hybrid. I am sure I made an error somewhere. Please help me get my head around it all you EV drivers.
 

proven

Member
Sep 1, 2015
296
194
Raleigh, NC
It sounds like for your purposes the current Model X doesn't make sense. We're switching from a minivan, have two kids instead of three, and don't haul big stuff around very often--for us the X fits very well. I don't really see the X as a true SUV. It's more of a small SUV/Crossover that competes with minivans and CUV's.
 

CarlK

Active Member
Mar 23, 2013
1,919
1,236
SF Bay Area
No offense but i think the plug-in hybrid is mostly a scam when the company could not come up with a compelling pure BEV. A lot of people in CA bought Prius plug-in for the sole reason that they can get an HOV sticker. With the short battery range everyone knows pretty much all Prius in the HOV lane are running on ICE and emit toxic gas just like ICE cars next to them. To me PHEV= ICE there is no other way around it. Just get an ICE if BEV is not for you instead of that posuer PHEV.
 
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Roamer

Member
Aug 16, 2013
279
132
Mesa, Arizona, United States
Personally I find the whole eMPG to be a little silly. It is a made up rating so people can still gas think when they EV.

My math is much simpler. When I drive my Tesla it costs just over one cent a mile when charged with my surplus solar ( I can sell the surplus for 3.4 cents a kWh). If I charge with retail electricity it costs a little over three cents a mile. If I were to drive my BMW at 18 MPG it costs me 16 cents a mile, buying premium in Southern California. A little less in other places. So my comparison is zero to one cent a mile verses 16 cents a mile.

And best of all my energy cost per mile when traveling is zero.

So I think energy cost per mile is much more useful than a government made up formula to try to equate kWhs to MPG. I don't really care what that number is. What has meaning to me is the cost of energy per mile and how clean that energy is.

So until people adapt to a new way I guess a meaningless conversion to an eMPG guess is the best we can do. It does work for people trying to sell hybrids to people used to buying gas.

- - - Updated - - -

Carlk, Arizona limited the number of clean air plates available for hybrids so we don't have that problem in Arizona. Clean Air plates that allow car pool access are unlimited for pure EV. Arizona figured out the limited range hybrids don't do much to reduce emissions out on the freeway so they stopped issuing the clean air car pool plates for them. If it has a smokestack it should not get a clean air plate or ugly California sticker.
 

calisnow

Banned
Oct 11, 2014
2,867
4,651
Los Angeles
As a newly minted Tesla 70D owner (totally in love btw) I have to agree with the OP's perspective. I also own a 2004 Infiniti QX56 14 mpg battle tank with 230K miles that I would love to replace. However if I were you, OP, I'd hold on to your Sequoia a bit longer and wait for a big ICE SUV with a full autopilot system like Tesla has. That would be the SUV which makes me replace my Infiniti - until I can get an autopilot as capable as my Tesla's in another SUV I'm not replacing the Infiniti - after experiencing autopilot I will never purchase another vehicle without one. If you can wait just a bit longer and keep using your Sequoia you should be able to get an autopilot in an ICE SUV and happily use it for the next 9/10 years or however long you plan to keep it.

I'm still considering an X for a 2nd Tesla but my interest is fading and I will probably end up with a second Model S.
 

CarlK

Active Member
Mar 23, 2013
1,919
1,236
SF Bay Area
Carlk, Arizona limited the number of clean air plates available for hybrids so we don't have that problem in Arizona. Clean Air plates that allow car pool access are unlimited for pure EV. Arizona figured out the limited range hybrids don't do much to reduce emissions out on the freeway so they stopped issuing the clean air car pool plates for them. If it has a smokestack it should not get a clean air plate or ugly California sticker.

CA issues unlimited numbers of white stickers for pure BEV/FCV and limited numbers of green stickers for cars like Prius plug-in. However legislature just opened up more green stickers recently so essentially everyone who wants one will get one. The net effect has nothing to do with emissions. It does help sell those cars few would have spent $5000 extra for though. I just call that Prius sticker. BTW CA also gives FCV a real good deal in the clean vehicle rebate with high amount and no income limitation. Toyota must have hired some real good lobbyists.
 
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BornToFly

Supporting Member
May 8, 2013
1,757
11,692
Elon's world
@MikeJr74 - You have to get what works for family. After 3 years in a Model S (the last year in a P85D with autopilot), you could not PAY me to get into a PHEV of any kind. I hate gas stations, and having to get gas is incredibly inconvenient. I also can't stand transmissions in ICE vehicles anymore. A Porsche 911S feels slow to respond to the throttle now. I can't imagine a giant Volvo. Compared to an X, the Volvo will feel like a pig. We are disappointed the second row doesn't fold flat, but we will make it work, because there is NO WAY we are getting any SUV other than a full EV. I also use autopilot all the time now, and if a vehicle can't drive itself 90+% of the time, I'm not interested.
 

MiddKid

Member
Jan 3, 2014
305
257
Seattle
Wow...I post late Friday then go skiing on Saturday and BAM! Lots of great discussion! I love this community. Thought I'd address a few of the themes:

- A lot of people mention that you can't compare a Sequoia to Model X which I totally agree with. BUT...we're actually downsizing a bit which is why we're looking at the XC90. And I'd argue that Tesla would put the MX up against the XC90. And this, for us, is where the "Utility" just falls apart. Something as simple as putting a roof box on the roof would give the MX so much more utility. But the FaWD make that difficult. Having seats that fold would give more utility. But they don't. Last night we took the whole family back to ride in an XC90 and the cabin is so much more comfortable for our family than the MX. Everything feels more refined and is luxurious with a heavy dose of utility. Elon may think his second row seats look beautiful but I'll take the XC90 all day long. More importantly I could actually see my two daughters clearly in the 3rd row rather than looking at tall headrests.

- @MikeJr74 Love that XC90! Sounds like we found ourselves in the same situation!

- On why go with the PHEV versus the pure ICE: My wife is an around the town driver and we think with mid-day plug-ins she can get a ton of range out of the 17 mile battery. We'll pay the premium for the convenience and the good of the environment.

- For those who say "I'll never buy a hybrid or ICE again!!!" While I conceptually agree with you, the reality is if you want the utility we are looking for, Tesla doesn't offer it.

- Regarding car sickness...first of all, yes, I know how to drive my MS after 30K miles. I'm not driving in a jerky manner. But it's amazing how often she gets car sick. This weekend is a great example...Saturday drove over an hour skiing in the Sequoia and she not only didn't get car sick, the road is windy and she even read a book most of the way! The next day we drove to the next town over mostly on highway and after 15 minutes her "tummy hurt." And she was sitting in the middle seat of the back row (not rear facing). I never thought much about it until I saw other references on the MS forum about it. Good to hear that some people have had success with the MX! Hopeful!

So yesterday we decided to put a deposit on an XC90. Then as I mentioned when my MS RVG comes up early next year we'll revisit replacing the MS with the MX. Great discussion all!
 

ABCCBA

Member
Dec 20, 2015
387
234
Somewhere
@MiddKid Congratulations. The wife loves hers more each day. She is learning the different power modes and also how to drive a car with regen. She is increasing the range of the battery as she learns.

I just bought a used 2015 MS 85D today! Our first Tesla.

So, by cancelling our MX P90D, we each got vehicles, a ton of combined people and cargo carrying capability AND stayed just under what it would have cost us for the MX. I am thrilled.

End result, we turned a poor experience with the MX, into a positive and motivating experience.

Best wishes with your XC90 T8. PM me some pics when you get it.

Mike
Wow...I post late Friday then go skiing on Saturday and BAM! Lots of great discussion! I love this community. Thought I'd address a few of the themes:

- A lot of people mention that you can't compare a Sequoia to Model X which I totally agree with. BUT...we're actually downsizing a bit which is why we're looking at the XC90. And I'd argue that Tesla would put the MX up against the XC90. And this, for us, is where the "Utility" just falls apart. Something as simple as putting a roof box on the roof would give the MX so much more utility. But the FaWD make that difficult. Having seats that fold would give more utility. But they don't. Last night we took the whole family back to ride in an XC90 and the cabin is so much more comfortable for our family than the MX. Everything feels more refined and is luxurious with a heavy dose of utility. Elon may think his second row seats look beautiful but I'll take the XC90 all day long. More importantly I could actually see my two daughters clearly in the 3rd row rather than looking at tall headrests.

- @MikeJr74 Love that XC90! Sounds like we found ourselves in the same situation!

- On why go with the PHEV versus the pure ICE: My wife is an around the town driver and we think with mid-day plug-ins she can get a ton of range out of the 17 mile battery. We'll pay the premium for the convenience and the good of the environment.

- For those who say "I'll never buy a hybrid or ICE again!!!" While I conceptually agree with you, the reality is if you want the utility we are looking for, Tesla doesn't offer it.

- Regarding car sickness...first of all, yes, I know how to drive my MS after 30K miles. I'm not driving in a jerky manner. But it's amazing how often she gets car sick. This weekend is a great example...Saturday drove over an hour skiing in the Sequoia and she not only didn't get car sick, the road is windy and she even read a book most of the way! The next day we drove to the next town over mostly on highway and after 15 minutes her "tummy hurt." And she was sitting in the middle seat of the back row (not rear facing). I never thought much about it until I saw other references on the MS forum about it. Good to hear that some people have had success with the MX! Hopeful!

So yesterday we decided to put a deposit on an XC90. Then as I mentioned when my MS RVG comes up early next year we'll revisit replacing the MS with the MX. Great discussion all!
@MiddKid
 
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Superloud

Member
Aug 26, 2015
158
72
Santa Clara, CA
Thank you Middkid and Mike. This thread is super helpful and has me taking a closer look at the xc90.

Do either of you feel like the 2L four banger which is super/turbo charged up to the max is a little undersized for the almost 5000lb vehicle? Both in terms of acceleration/towing/etc power but also the feeling that an engine that small can't possibly stand the test of time in such a big car?

Some of the reviews I've read allude to this. But they do tent to say the T8 really helps drive ability. Is that your impression? I've read that the ICE only version has lots of lag because acceleration always needs to be preceded by a downshift to build boost. Is that concern eliminated in the T8? Even at highway speeds?
 

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