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Yup and thanks. Yeah the carfax said 1 owner, no accidents and auto check said 1 owner, fleet vehicle, auctioned, leased vehicle
I will let the lawyers advise me legally. If they can't do anything then I'll trade it in to pay off my new car because I don't want to sell an unsafe car to another unsuspecting person especially if it ends up having frame damage
These auto fraud lawyers are pro Bono. The one currently helping me is also non profit, so I feel good about it
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Well that should make things MUCH easier...
Wrong. You might expect paint blemishes, a beat up interior, stuff like that. But anything major like an accident is required to be disclosed, and if it's not, then that's on the selling party, not on the purchasing party.
Carfax is not the end all and be all. I purchased a car with ‘no’ damage history according to carfax. When applied for a loan, the credit union wouldn’t approve it because of accident history. Well, they use AutoCheck, and it did show an accident.
The reporting agencies are only as good as as the information they find
The reporting agencies are only as good as as the information they find
Auto checker didn't show it was in an accident either. That's why dealers have to disclose rental/leased vehicles by law because they can very easily just fix the damages themselves and not report accidents
If a private owner got into an accident, there are multiple ways it could get reported: their insurance, the body shop, etc...
"SUPPOSED to" is the operative term. I am sure situations exist where a car owner will fix a car on their own or take it to some body shop to do the work under the table in which case nothing gets reported. Only way to know for sure if an accident happened is to look for the repairs/match panel numbers. The place you purchased the vehicle from failing to do their homework is a clear miss, and advertising the car as clean/no accidents is basically fraud.
Some friendly advice for the OP would be to cease discussion of this matter while any legal action is ongoing. Anything you say or write can be brought into evidence against you. Believe me, I really want to know how this plays out but better to wait until after it's resolved.
I do hope everything gets settled to your satisfaction.
So the vehicle has a clean and clear carfax, but you're going to sue the selling dealership because it has accident damage? And you think they somehow knew about that? on an as is vehicle? lol. I don't think you know how this stuff works. I sincerely hope you do actually talk to an attorney.
It's irrelevant whether they knew or not. They sold the OP a car that had been in an accident and they did not disclose that it had been in an accident. Disclosure of stuff like this is required. They also are the only entity that was ever on the title to the vehicle so they should have known if it had been in an accident. They are responsible to the OP for misrepresenting the product they sold.
The way it works is that if it turns out that they had rented it to someone else, and that someone else got into an accident and tried to hide the damage, then they need to sue that person, because that person is responsible to them for the damage that occurred when he/she had the vehicle. And also, let's say this hypothetical scenario is true, and someone else rented it from the seller, damaged it, and didn't tell the seller about the damage. Well guess what? The OP would actually not be able to sue that person directly because the OP never had any transaction with that person. That person would simply say that the OP has no standing to sue him/her because the OP never had any business transaction with him/her and the case would be immediately dismissed.
The seller is responsible to the OP, and the person who actually damaged the car is responsible to the seller. So the OP must sue the seller and then the seller can then turn around and sue the person who damaged it in turn.
tengtengvn
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Are they some 22 years old lawyers doing free work to gain experience?
This. Unless it's a certified pre-owned which acts as short warranty coverage and comes with an inspection. Most used cars often change multiple hands (auction to dealer to another dealer) and are mostly sold as-is with no dealer warranty.
Here is an example of another Tesla being sold by that same dealer. They advertise it as: ONE OWNER, clean title, clean CARFAX,... https://www.apxautobrokers.com/details/used-2017-tesla-model-s/80882101
Another example of a Porsche which has a minor accident reported to Carfax, then they just listed it as: Two owners, clean title,...
If OP's Tesla was involved in a minor accident and was repaired but wasn't reported then it isn't the job of the used car dealer to report it. I don't think used car dealerships are obligated to inspect the used cars outside of their PPO program? When buying a used car, it's the responsibility of the buyer to perform or pay for a pre-purchase inspection. I hope OP has a contract or some short of evidence to prove that the used car dealership promised him that the car is free of accident. It's a federal mandate that you sign this buyers guide when buying a used car.
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Posting to this forum is a bit of a headache with the people who refuse to Google what "auto fraud" and "auto misrepresentation" are.
I removed all identifying info and will stop responding until this is resolved because I keep repeating myself about how the potential accident and rental disclosures were never specifically made to me or specifically put in writing other than when I told apx I found those issues the on the very day I received the vehicle. People need to quit assuming what happened and what sales documents I signed. I did get an inspection as soon as I could with the vehicle aside from at apx because I felt rushed. This is not a normal sale because it was done remotely, multiple states away.
If you're not understanding the laws and especially if you're not a lawyer, don't advise anyone legally and definitely don't discourage me to speak to a lawyer. It's really frustrating when I have some armchair legal advisors on here treating me like crap and telling me I have to just keep a seemingly illegal sale that cost me material damages when they clearly haven't even Googled the laws first.
This isn't a forum to make fun of others and learn about auto laws. It's about help and REASONABLE advice and discussions regarding tesla. (the last few messages were fine/calm...)
It's good to note on here since it might help others: that vehicle history reports can report different or additional information. For example: carfax didn't show the car was a fleet vehicle but the auto check report did. This was my first used car purchase so I didn't know getting multiple history reports was a good idea.
I'm going to try to not post here until I find out the legal outcome and I agree that it doesn't help anyone else to post further on this post until then as well. I do appreciate the help and support, but I think we discussed all that we can on this for now.
I removed all identifying info and will stop responding until this is resolved because I keep repeating myself about how the potential accident and rental disclosures were never specifically made to me or specifically put in writing other than when I told apx I found those issues the on the very day I received the vehicle. People need to quit assuming what happened and what sales documents I signed. I did get an inspection as soon as I could with the vehicle aside from at apx because I felt rushed. This is not a normal sale because it was done remotely, multiple states away.
If you're not understanding the laws and especially if you're not a lawyer, don't advise anyone legally and definitely don't discourage me to speak to a lawyer. It's really frustrating when I have some armchair legal advisors on here treating me like crap and telling me I have to just keep a seemingly illegal sale that cost me material damages when they clearly haven't even Googled the laws first.
This isn't a forum to make fun of others and learn about auto laws. It's about help and REASONABLE advice and discussions regarding tesla. (the last few messages were fine/calm...)
It's good to note on here since it might help others: that vehicle history reports can report different or additional information. For example: carfax didn't show the car was a fleet vehicle but the auto check report did. This was my first used car purchase so I didn't know getting multiple history reports was a good idea.
I'm going to try to not post here until I find out the legal outcome and I agree that it doesn't help anyone else to post further on this post until then as well. I do appreciate the help and support, but I think we discussed all that we can on this for now.
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Holy. Crap. This is absolutely hilarious. A private party doesn't have to disclose ANYTHING to a dealership when its sold or turned in. LOL. You obviously have ZERO CLUE about how auto sales and the law works. jesus christ. Then if the dealer doesnt know the history of a car, how the hell can they be expected to provide that information to the next buyer, SPECIFICALLY in an AS IS sale from an auction.
This might be the funniest forum post that I have EVER read.Sincerely, the owner of a large automotive dealership
They're not a dealer dude, at least not for this specific vehicle. Read the thread. They OWNED the vehicle the entire time. I'm not sure if they used it as a loaner, or it was for their employees, or what they did with it, but it was apparently titled to APX the entire time.
Here's an interesting case I was involved in: I bought a house from its previous owners. The previous owners had a contractor do some plumbing work about 3-4 years prior. The contractor (or more likely, one of its subcontractors) did not do the work to code. The house sale was supposed to be "AS IS" condition. The code violations in the plumbing work (which involved pipes not properly strapped to the subflooring, sewer lines that went up for a bit before going down, etc.) were not disclosed in the inspection report provided by the sellers. After fixing the problems, I asked the previous owners to pay for the expenses associated with fixing the code violations and threatened to sue them if they refused.You obviously have ZERO CLUE about how auto sales and the law works. jesus christ. Then if the dealer doesnt know the history of a car, how the hell can they be expected to provide that information to the next buyer, SPECIFICALLY in an AS IS sale from an auction.
Sincerely, the owner of a large automotive dealership
Well the previous owners refused to pay, citing that it was an "AS IS" sale, so I sued them for damages. They claimed lack of knowledge, saying that they didn't realize that their contractor hadn't done the work to code. In response, I noted that irrespective of what they actually knew, they should have known what their contractor was doing and knowledge of anything the contractor had done was imputed to them, and that regardless of whether the sale was "AS IS", it is a legal requirement that all work either be done to code or the fact that it was not done to code must be disclosed. I also noted that my lawyer had told me that had zero standing to sue this contractor directly, because I never had a business relationship with said contractor, and the recovery of money must proceed along the chain of responsibility: the sellers are responsible to me, and if it turns out that they weren't aware of these issues because someone else did the work, then they need to turn around and sue that other person to recover the money. I provided the invoices from the plumbers who did the work, showing how much in damages I incurred fixing the code violations. The Judge agreed with me and ordered the sellers to pay me 100% of the money I had originally asked them for.
I have no idea if the sellers turned around and sued the contractor after being ordered to make me whole again but that's outside of my control. If they did, it could turn out that the contractor hired a subcontractor, and it's possible that even the contractor was unaware of what was going on. In that case, the contractor would have to sue the subcontractor for damages after making the previous owners whole. Or it could have been that the subcontractor did want to do the work to code, but a "rogue" employee failed to do the work his employer told him to do. Well in that case, the subcontractor would then need to turn around and sue the employee or ex-employee. Or of course, it could also be that the sellers had some under the table agreement with the contractor to not do the work to code (I think this is unlikely, but it's possible), in which case, they would actually be liable and the chain of responsibility would stop there. I cannot be expected to know exactly which party was ultimately responsible for the damages but the law doesn't really care. The sellers were responsible to me, and thus, the Judge ordered them to pay me for all of the damages. If they need to turn around and sue another party because they were unaware of these issues, then that's what they need to do. And if that party was in turn unaware, the lawsuits proceed down the chain of responsibility until they reach the party that was actually responsible and that party has no one else to sue.
A legal requirement for disclosure is exactly that: a requirement to disclose any issues with the product you're selling. Whether or not you have knowledge of these issues at the time you are selling it is irrelevant. If some other party caused the issues without your knowledge, you are still responsible to your buyer, and you can then recover the money from the other party in turn.
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Very first paragraph in the first post in this thread:
"I purchased a used 2015 tesla s p85d from a 3rd party dealership in May 2021 out of state because it only had 16,000 miles on it and I figured that's too low of milage to have anything wrong with it. Biggest regret of my life. Never buy from APX Brokers in WA."
They are a dealership. Selling a car. Used dealers dont buy cars new, drive them for 8 years and 16k miles and then offer them for sale. The dealership is not the original owner, I promise you that. You've stated numerous times it was "FLEET VEHICLE" and "LEASED." jesus christ.This made me laugh too
The OP bought it for $57k (or less) invested $2000 in a MCU2 upgrade, listed it for $18,000 more than he paid 8 months prior, and now is furious that no one wants to buy it for $75,000 and is going to sue the dealership and previous owner because it has accident damage
Because tesla said the quarter panel had repair and tail light were cracked, so now it's frame damage. I swear you can't make this stuff up.And comparing real estate to automotive vehicles.... apples to oranges brother. I'm beginning to realize why this post got laughed off reddit. And whoever is deleting my posts, stop it. Let the truth be known so future viewers of this thread have a reasonable understanding of reality.
Sorry about the OP's cat by the way.
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That's false. Stop assuming things and saying false statements. Get therapy. All you've done is harass me here and cause headaches for everyone else. I hope the mods ban youVery first paragraph in the first post in this thread:
"I purchased a used 2015 tesla s p85d from a 3rd party dealership in May 2021 out of state because it only had 16,000 miles on it and I figured that's too low of milage to have anything wrong with it. Biggest regret of my life. Never buy from APX Brokers in WA."
This made me laugh too
View attachment 765580
The OP bought it for $57k (or less) invested $2000 in a MCU2 upgrade, listed it for $18,000 more than he paid 8 months prior, and now is furious that no one wants to buy it for $75,000 and is going to sue the dealership and previous owner because it has accident damage
And comparing real estate to automotive vehicles.... apples to oranges brother. I'm beginning to realize why this post got laughed off reddit. And whoever is deleting my posts, stop it. Let the truth be known so future viewers of this thread have a reasonable understanding of reality.
Sorry about the OP's cat by the way.
As stated previously, I can't confirm it has accident damage. Only a certified mechanic or the previous owner can especially since no prior accidents or damage was disclosed to me which is very illegal if that's the case EVEN IF IT'S SOLD "AS IS"
It's possible that this was a tesla fleet vehicle that was in an accident and then auctioned off for very cheap and then apx could have purchased, fixed it up, and re sold it for way more. If that's the case, tesla would have all the details, as they can't just auction a car that's been in an accident without disclosing that. That would mean apx would have full knowledge of the damage.
As stated earlier, this is why it's illegal to sell a used car if it's been rented/leased without disclosing that information
I never said that is DOES have frame damage, just that I'm getting it inspected for frame damage.
Tesla confirmed it had body damage done to it, and that's a big deal because it wasn't disclosed to me or the fact that it was still broken and needed additional repairs there in order to drive it safely. You can't sell an unsafe vehicle without disclosing that
It seems that the average age and intelligence level on reddit is low, so I'm not upset it didn't get any comments there
I never sold the car or listed it for 75k, not sure where that's coming from but it's not even being listed for sale right now so stfu
Consumer protection laws are state laws but ALSO there are federal consumer protection laws, and they are similar. Quit advising/discouraging legal issues since you're not a lawyer! Not sure why you're not understanding this
You joined very recently, the majority of your time spent on here is making fun of and mocking people, and the majority of your time in here is posting in my thread. And don't understand how that makes you look?
but thanks for the empathy for my cat at least
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So you're a car dealership OWNER who doesn't know that used car values sharply increased from what they were 8 months ago? And you don't know what auto fraud and misrepresentation laws are??? And you don't know what should be disclosed in auto sales? And you are negative to people on a car forum where you can be find out where you work and lose business from these kinds of postsHoly. Crap. This is absolutely hilarious. A private party doesn't have to disclose ANYTHING to a dealership when its sold or turned in. LOL. You obviously have ZERO CLUE about how auto sales and the law works. jesus christ. Then if the dealer doesnt know the history of a car, how the hell can they be expected to provide that information to the next buyer, SPECIFICALLY in an AS IS sale from an auction.
Sincerely, the owner of a large automotive dealership
You also seem to have a lot of time on your hands for a dealership owner
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When the law requires a duty to disclose, it doesn't matter what you're selling. The legal theory is the same. YOU are responsible to your buyer for disclosing anything wrong with what you're selling, regardless of whether you know about it or not. If you run a used car sales business, following a policy of "don't ask, don't tell" where someone who sells you a car winks at you and suggests that something MAY be wrong with the car will not protect you. Well okay, it might, if you sell to a naïve buyer, but any buyer who knows what he or she is doing or who has a lawyer who knows what he or she is doing is going to sue you for damages -- and he or she will win. And then you'll have to waste time going after the person who sold you the vehicle to get your money back when you could have just avoided the situation entirely by actually being honest.
So you're a car dealership OWNER who doesn't know that used car values sharply increased from what they were 8 months ago? And you don't know what auto fraud and misrepresentation laws are??? And you don't know what should be disclosed in auto sales? And you are negative to people on a car forum where you can be find out where you work and lose business from these kinds of posts
No, values did not go up $20,000 on a 2015 P85D.
I'm not "negative to people on a car forum" but you're spreading all kinds of lies and misrepresentation here. I provided you with the facts.
Heres a link stating the car was listed for $75,000 on 12-31-2021:
Check Any VIN - It's Free | Free Vehicle History and VIN Check
1) Enter Any VIN with Free Preview 2) Full VIN Reports Are Now Free. Search Any Vehicle History using our Free VIN Check and Free Vehicle History.
Your vin is 5YJSA1H48FF095341, correct? Im assuming you have 19604 miles around 12-31-21, right?
No, dealers arent required to disclose things they dont know about on USED AS IS CAR SALES. You have zero, and I mean zero legal precedent. Now we've went from "the car has frame damage and im suing them" to "the car was a fleet vehicle" to "the car was a lease" all kinds of BS.
No consumer protection law was violated. No fraud occured, nothing was misrepresented. You made a dumb purchase, on auction, on an as is car, and you are trying to get people to feel sorry for you or tell you what you want to hear. Unfouratnely, that is not reality. What I've told you here is reality. The only person getting mad is you at the facts. Keep your emotion out of it and try to stick to what actually happened. Yes, I own a car dealership. Yes, we have been in business for over a decade and have 100% positive feedback. Yes, I have won many cases where the buyer had buyers remorse, or did not do their due diligence and tried to take legal action. They all lost, and it cost them dearly. Provided what you have stated numerous times on this post, you will lose very dearly. You sure you want to go down the same route?
This has to be the new funniest thing I have ever read. This has to be someone trolling, right?
You're the creepy troll posting like a 10 year old and posting personal identifying information and arguing with everyone dispite me saying I'm not taking further advice on this forum until after I speak to a lawyer
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