Myopic focus on inefficiency (aka jobs)

[nwdiver]

There was a recent episode of the 'Politico Energy' podcast where they were discussing the rare agreement between Environmentalists and anti-Environmentalists with regard to the proposed pebble mine in Alaska. What I found 'interesting' was that the main point the anti-Environmentalists made in opposition to the proposed mine was that it would only create ~2,000 jobs while fishing, hunting, tourism and other forms of outdoor activity created ~14,000 jobs in the surrounding areas. It's more than a little insane that if this mine was less efficient and required 10x more people to operate that would for some reason make it.... better? Forget the 20M tons of copper and other necessary medals. How many people is it going to keep busy?

You see this argument over and over. When I discuss Wind and Solar energy with people vs nuclear one of the main arguments I always hear is that renewables don't employ enough people;;;;; WHAT?! So you would rather use technology that produces 10MWh/man-hour instead of 100MWh/man-hour??? Why? When did efficiency become a taboo???

#UBINOW!

 

[AceSkywalker]

Many cultures equate success to working and income. That translates to politicians and policies that promise to create jobs. The notion of "we don't want money; we want jobs" is a prevailing mentality across the world.

 

[nwdiver]

Many cultures equate success to working and income. That translates to politicians and policies that promise to create jobs. The notion of "we don't want money; we want jobs" is a prevailing mentality across the world.

I guess what we need is to start hiring people to dig holes. That would create even more jobs for people to fill holes. We could have 2 jobs for every hole...

I've long advocated to ban pipelines even semi-trucks and trains to carry oil. Imagine how many jobs we could create if oil had to be transported one barrel at a time by a hand truck!

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I guess what we need is to start hiring people to dig holes. That would create even more jobs for people to fill holes. We could have 2 jobs for every hole...

The Chinese don't fill holes. How are we going to compete if we fill holes?

 

[nwdiver]

Many cultures equate success to working and income.

Kinda my point here. Culturally we need to decouple work and income if we want to make progress. I haven't received a $1 from work in ~3 years. But I still 'work'. I'm building a solar company, not because I need to or I could die of a preventable illness if I get sick (I live in 'merca) but because I enjoy it and we need more solar. I'll probably start volunteering to maintain trails on BLM land next year. Not because I think it will make me any $$$ but because I'll enjoy it and it needs to get done.

We desperately need a cultural paradigm shift pertaining to income or things are going to get worse. They're already pretty bad.

 

[GSP]

When did efficiency become a taboo???

#UBINOW!

I think it started in England with the Luddites. It never went away. Humans definitely can be myopic.

GSP

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I think it started in England with the Luddites. It never went away. Humans definitely can be myopic.

GSP

There were already protests before the Luddites. But note that the Luddite movement wasn't solely about loss of income: it was also a response to deteriorating working conditions for unskilled labor.

This has in fact something that has never gone away, it's largely just been accepted, and, as nwdiver notes, it's a concern that comes from an insistence that initial acquisition of capital should come from labor. You can see this with people promoting themselves as self-made, even when they received education and/or a large initial capital injection as a result of parents' wealth, and in the way people admire those who are self-made over those who are more successful but had the benefit of parental support.

 

[ladysbff]

Kinda my point here. Culturally we need to decouple work and income if we want to make progress. I haven't received a $1 from work in ~3 years. But I still 'work'. I'm building a solar company, not because I need to or I could die of a preventable illness if I get sick (I live in 'merca) but because I enjoy it and we need more solar. I'll probably start volunteering to maintain trails on BLM land next year. Not because I think it will make me any $$$ but because I'll enjoy it and it needs to get done.

We desperately need a cultural paradigm shift pertaining to income or things are going to get worse. They're already pretty bad.

I admire your optimism

A meaningful cultural paradigm shift isn’t just needed desperately... it is needed critically... but as long as we allow money and capital to reign supreme in this country, I don’t see us getting there any time soon - save for a truly catastrophic event that forces bold leadership and collective sacrifice for the greater good.

I say “truly” because apparently COVID and climate change haven’t been convincing enough.

 

[TheTalkingMule]

In Philly everyone seems to focus on solar purely as a source of jobs.....and that mentality is single-handedly keeping the industry from growing and adding a more significant amount of jobs.

I paid an absurdly high price for my array(for a rational reason we don't need to get into), and almost lost it on the installer kids a few times they were so purposely inefficient. They laddered every single individual piece of hardware up to my rowhouse flat roof rather than cherry picker it up in two lots over maybe 5 minutes. Even the concrete blocks used to weigh down my racking system were carried up one at a time in a DeWalt bag. Maddening.

When I asked these guys why, they said the boss asked if they wanted a cherry picker and they said no because hey.....it's an hourly job. And these guys aren't even union. Nearly too much for me to bear.

A job I could've done in one day with no training and an instruction manual took three guys 2.25 days.

 

[nwdiver]

In Philly everyone seems to focus on solar purely as a source of jobs.....and that mentality is single-handedly keeping the industry from growing and adding a more significant amount of jobs.

I paid an absurdly high price for my array(for a rational reason we don't need to get into), and almost lost it on the installer kids a few times they were so purposely inefficient. They laddered every single individual piece of hardware up to my rowhouse flat roof rather than cherry picker it up in two lots over maybe 5 minutes. Even the concrete blocks used to weigh down my racking system were carried up one at a time in a DeWalt bag. Maddening.

When I asked these guys why, they said the boss asked if they wanted a cherry picker and they said no because hey.....it's an hourly job. And these guys aren't even union. Nearly too much for me to bear.

A job I could've done in one day with no training and an instruction manual took three guys 2.25 days.

First people complained that renewables were too expensive. Now they're too cheap (don't create enough jobs). Americans are the Goldilocks of Energy.

 

[ladysbff]

This thread and the phrase "myopic focus on inefficiency (aka jobs)" seriously lives rent-free in my mind. I wish we paid more people to farm and to recycle complicated junk.

 

[nwdiver]

I wish we paid more people to farm and to recycle complicated junk.

I think you might be missing part of the point to the OP. To many people a farm that employs 100 people and produces 10 tons of produce a season is better than a farm that employs 10 people and produces 100 tons of produce a year. Or a recycling facility that processes 10 tons/yr and employs 100 people is somehow better than one that processes 100 tons/yr and employs 10...

My point is that the focus should be on the output not how many people we're able to keep gainfully employed. They're two separate problems with two separate solutions.

 

[ladysbff]

I think you might be missing part of the point to the OP. To many people a farm that employs 100 people and produces 10 tons of produce a season is better than a farm that employs 10 people and produces 100 tons of produce a year. Or a recycling facility that processes 10 tons/yr and employs 100 people is somehow better than one that processes 100 tons/yr and employs 10...

My point is that the focus should be on the output not how many people we're able to keep gainfully employed. They're two separate problems with two separate solutions.

You made a great point and that's why this thread lives rent-free in my mind

My comment was more so about imagining productive things that are always useful to humans (food, rare minerals) that people could always do if they have nothing better to do. Kind of ideating about what different forms of UBI could look like and how we shift culture so that people are more interested in useful things. I think getting paid makes people more likely to develop an interest. So maybe de-linking output and wages?

 

[nwdiver]

 

[nwdiver]

I would love to see a study on how much work humans put into making more work for humans.

 

[MontyFloyd]

I've long advocated to ban pipelines even semi-trucks and trains to carry oil. Imagine how many jobs we could create if oil had to be transported one barrel at a time by a hand truck!

Keystone XL pipe line is a perfect example of Republican duplicity

First the grossly exaggerated jobs numbers (said "1000's", but when finished was about 35), then the cost savings by getting rid of (you guessed it) transportation jobs.
And in long run will line the CEO's pockets instead.

The supreme irony and proof why Republicans do not give a fly turd for their constituents, it is a Canadian company that will gain most from it.

Speaking off, most of that Canadian muck will become turd filling up Texas.