Myth of the 'all in one' charge network card

[Danal]

Assume the "Gas stations don't make any real money on the gas, it is the convenience store" is true. So... why does the EV charger in front of my favorite restaurant (not off in the corner, right up front), why does that specific charger require an Internet sign-up and a separate RFID card? Why can't anyone with an EV just swipe/tap a credit card there, go in, and eat?

 

[gglockner]

As I understand it, gas stations make little profit from selling gas, and mostly make their money by getting people inside to buy snacks and drinks, or getting people to patronize the associated garage. It's tough to find a gas station that only sells gas.

Costco? Sure, they sell a lot more than gas - but you can buy gas during hours when the store is closed.

 

[wycolo]

Since banks no longer pay any interest the smarter ones are offering free atm usage via the AllPoint atms. Target, Safeway, Kroger and their related convenience stores have these atms. Not getting nickel and dimed is enough of an incentive for voluntarily keeping ~ the price of a new replacement car in one's account. We want to support companies that are big enough, at least in spirit, to go over to the dark side of the business model.
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[Danal]

All great points... at the same time, the following two questions are still very unclear:

1) Has there been, anywhere in the USA, an EV charger that will accept payment from anyone who drives up, no phone call or web registration required?

2) If not, does anyone know why not? And even if there is a very small sample, why is accepting payment just like a gas pump, why is that not common?

 

[ThosEM]

Some of us may be old enough to remember our first credit cards, which in my experience were invariably gasoline company cards that only worked at one vendor's stations. Remember that? But I don't recall ever having a problem paying for gas with a BankAmeriCard or AmEx, once I got my hands on one.

It has to be just a matter of time until someone with some vision comes out with an EV charging network that honors credit cards at the point of purchase. When that happens, buy some of it, because those folks are going to take over.

 

[Danal]

Some of us may be old enough to remember our first credit cards, which in my experience were invariably gasoline company cards that only worked at one vendor's stations. Remember that? But I don't recall ever having a problem paying for gas with a BankAmeriCard or AmEx, once I got my hands on one.

It has to be just a matter of time until someone with some vision comes out with an EV charging network that honors credit cards at the point of purchase. When that happens, buy some of it, because those folks are going to take over.

Yes, but... your point is that a payment system developed in parallel with gasoline distribution. That payment system was quite mature before BEV chargers began to be designed... so... why not credit cards?

No one even has an opinion or a guess? How unlike TMC...

 

[miimura]

Someone already gave a good reason upthread. Credit Card transaction fees are 20-30 cents per swipe plus 1-4% of the transaction amount. All the charging networks I've seen add $20-$25 at a time to your balance. That makes the credit card fees much more manageable. They would have to increase the fees for direct credit card transactions at the charging station, which may be a violation of the merchant agreement. Unsupervised charging stations could also be classified as "high risk" by MC/Visa and be charged even higher fees. There is a reason that you pay 4-10c/gal more to use a credit card at a gas pump.

 

[Galve2000]

Hmmm... is it actually the payment? Or is it just a validation card, and the credit card back on your master account is the payment? Really, the key question is: Can ANYONE activate the charger and get electrons, WITHOUT signing up at a web site first?

back when they charged $3/min ChargePoint would give you a $0.25 credit for using their card. this credit was per session. AFAIK they did away with this when they switched to 0.49/kWh pricing but my usage also dropped way down so it may be my limited usage of their system rather than the fact that their prices dropped.

as a very wise forum TMC member pointed out to me, for the Model S with it's 10kW on-board charger, the $3/hr rate was actually a better deal than paying $0.49/kWh but this was not true of my Chevy Volt with its puny 3.3 kW onboard charger. Even when the Model S was only pulling 6.6kWh that as the limit the Chargepo

What happened in my case -- and at the time the ChargePoint chargers were charing $3.00/hr was that when I would "swipe" my debit card (and by "swipe" I mean NFC "tap" the EVSE) I would get a preauthorization of $1 for every hour I was connected to the charger. I guess b/c it was a debit card, these funds were actually removed from my account. Then, usually after 24 hrs, the transaction would complete and I would be charged $3/hr to the nearest minute.

to answer your second question:

Yes. I believe anyone with an NFC device can get electrons without signing up with the website 1st. To this point, I used my debit card to activate a free ChargePoint charger before my ChargePoint card arrived and it worked just fine even though there was no charge for use. I like the fact that people have to authenticate to use the charger. it keeps people honest.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Someone already gave a good reason upthread. Credit Card transaction fees are 20-30 cents per swipe plus 1-4% of the transaction amount. All the charging networks I've seen add $20-$25 at a time to your balance. That makes the credit card fees much more manageable. They would have to increase the fees for direct credit card transactions at the charging station, which may be a violation of the merchant agreement. Unsupervised charging stations could also be classified as "high risk" by MC/Visa and be charged even higher fees. There is a reason that you pay 4-10c/gal more to use a credit card at a gas pump.

(In Maine retailers are not allowed by law to apply surcharges. I think CA and some other states are the same. It's a bad law and the most sickening thing about it is that you pay a fee if you pay taxes or registrations with a credit card, which means that the government knows that it's a giant game of prisoners dilemma that sucks money out of the economy.)

Exactly. It's the micropayment problem, where the cost of small financial transactions is relatively high, so you want to reduce the number of transactions. Electronic toll systems use accounts for the same reason.

My local gas station has an unlinked debit card that uses the Federal clearing system, giving a fixed transaction cost. To get you to use it they give you 10c/gall off, although their price per gallon seems to be a few cents higher than other locations. If any other chains had unlinked debit cards I'd get them.

In the long run it'd be good to see public chargers incorporated into other transportation payment systems like toll passes.

CA has a law that all pay chargers must accept credit cards, which I don't like, but I think it allows for differential pricing.

 

[Danal]

The detailed discussion of fees at gas pumps just further begs the question. Why not those same structures at EV chargers? Why not have a card reader on the charger and a sign that says "$1.00 to start, plus $1.00 per hour"? or similar. Or even "$1 per hour; $2 minimum charge after first 5 minutes". Or whatever. Phrased correctly, any of those would work. Yet "open, CC swipe" chargers are extremely rare, and now that I've learned at least a few exist, I'd add that I didn't know that, and I own two electric cars! So they seem to be even more extremely poorly labeled.

Why?

Also, it seems like there are quite numerous other CC transactions under $3 in my daily life to believe it is just the fees.

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CA has a law that all pay chargers must accept credit cards, which I don't like, but I think it allows for differential pricing.

Really? So they are all set up for what I'm asking about? Anyone can drive up and swipe/tap and get electrons? Sounds pretty nice to me. What is the downside that causes you not to like it?

 

[ChadS]

The CA law (which isn't fully in effect; there was time allowed for implementation) doesn't actually specify credit cards; it says that public chargers must be operable by people that don't have a private club card, and credit cards are given as an example of one way to make it work. Paying for a code from a cashier inside the site host business might work for some cases, or having a phone number to call for activation (though that usually involves a credit card too). The parking meter model works too - stuff it full of quarters.

Part of the reason most charging networks started with private cards is indeed that the credit cards fees are more manageable. Also note that it costs more to install credit-card processing equipment than an RFID reader, and it won't work without good connectivity. So saving money is part of it, as is making the system simpler. Trying to force people in to their "network" was also part of it, though I think everybody realized that wouldn't work except for the people at the charging networks that were trying to slam something together quick and cheap and then hoping they would get enough business to justify it.

The charging networks at first fought the rules, like any company fights any new regulation. But after getting some changes to the law and realizing its what the customer wanted and they were going to have to do anyway, most of them ended up supporting it.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

The detailed discussion of fees at gas pumps just further begs the question. Why not those same structures at EV chargers? Why not have a card reader on the charger and a sign that says "$1.00 to start, plus $1.00 per hour"? or similar. Or even "$1 per hour; $2 minimum charge after first 5 minutes". Or whatever. Phrased correctly, any of those would work. Yet "open, CC swipe" chargers are extremely rare, and now that I've learned at least a few exist, I'd add that I didn't know that, and I own two electric cars! So they seem to be even more extremely poorly labeled.

Why?

Also, it seems like there are quite numerous other CC transactions under $3 in my daily life to believe it is just the fees.

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Really? So they are all set up for what I'm asking about? Anyone can drive up and swipe/tap and get electrons? Sounds pretty nice to me. What is the downside that causes you not to like it?

(Chad has corrected me on the payment issue, thanks).

Contention is a significant issue and therefore the ability to have private charging networks has value.
California does not mandate back-up generstors for gas stations.
It's just unnecessary and unconsistent.

 

[miimura]

I have not heard about CA state requirements for non-membership based access except in the context of the NRG settlement. Those stations are definitely subject to that requirement. The other gotcha is that the one or two credit/debit cards that I had with the NFC symbol have been replaced with new cards that do not support it. Now I don't have any NFC enabled cards. ApplePay is the only NFC payment method I have available now. So, I just joined all the networks I am likely to use and chose a plan that had no monthly fee.

 

[ChadS]

Just to clarify (I'm not sure if there's confusion here or not) - CA still allows private, member-only networks (which can include, say, employer-offered stations for employees only). And those can insist on payment using a "club" card if they like.

The requirement that any member of the public be able to use a station without requiring a club card only applies to "public" stations, that is, ones which advertise themselves as available for use to anybody.

 

[Robert.Boston]

The detailed discussion of fees at gas pumps just further begs the question. Why not those same structures at EV chargers? Why not have a card reader on the charger and a sign that says "$1.00 to start, plus $1.00 per hour"? or similar. Or even "$1 per hour; $2 minimum charge after first 5 minutes". Or whatever.

I think it's too early to force a mode of price competition on the industry. Should charges be time-based? kWh-based? All-you-can-eat? I can make theoretical arguments for any of those models. Let's see what pricing structure actually works before requiring standardization.

I do agree that the costs ought to be clearly posted and that one should be able to use all public chargers without pre-registering. There certainly could be a different price for 'club' members and 'a la carte' users.

 

[Danal]

I think it's too early to force a mode of price competition on the industry. Should charges be time-based? kWh-based? All-you-can-eat? I can make theoretical arguments for any of those models. Let's see what pricing structure actually works before requiring standardization.

I do agree that the costs ought to be clearly posted and that one should be able to use all public chargers without pre-registering. There certainly could be a different price for 'club' members and 'a la carte' users.

Yeah, I am NOT trying to imply any particular price structure or model... it's just required for an example of "Drive up, swipe, and charge". That's my real question: Why is this so uncommon for EV chargers?

 

[ThosEM]

I wouldn't object to a few cents differential to use my credit card instead of their membership card; no different from the way some gas stations treat cash payments to a discount. And I stand by my opinion that the first network to allow any major credit card to be used is going to grow rapidly, while the others whither and decline.

I'm not familiar with the situation in CA, but on the east coast, Chargepoint, EVGO, Semaconnect and others are busily trying to persuade us to join "their network" instead of one of the others. When pushed, they say that you can use any charger without their card by calling them at the charger and requesting it, but the official posture is that you need their card to use the station. They probably demand enough data from you to open an account for you before they will turn on the charger, provided you can reach them by phone at any particular time.

Someone already gave a good reason upthread. Credit Card transaction fees are 20-30 cents per swipe plus 1-4% of the transaction amount. All the charging networks I've seen add $20-$25 at a time to your balance. That makes the credit card fees much more manageable. They would have to increase the fees for direct credit card transactions at the charging station, which may be a violation of the merchant agreement. Unsupervised charging stations could also be classified as "high risk" by MC/Visa and be charged even higher fees. There is a reason that you pay 4-10c/gal more to use a credit card at a gas pump.