adiggs
Well-Known Member
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2. There is one other element-concentrating process that could conceivably occur on the moon and that could disrupt my thesis. Can anyone suggest what that might be?
Alien Smelters?
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NASA Announcement for the Moon
- Thread starter Grendal
- Start date
Alien Smelters?
Not so, there will be returns. They want the hardware that they sent up back, too, and a bit of extra payload would cost very little in comparison. "Can't just pile them up like used coke cans", or something like that, is what Elon said w.r.t. Mars missions, but the same logic applies.
Unless it is black, and 1:4:9, and sending a signal to Jupiter.They left it on the moon, not because it is easy (to find) but because it is hard (to find)!
Fun story: Unlike Bezos or Branson or Musk, megalomaniac billionaires with unrivaled ability to implement a vision, Bigelow takes a slightly different approach.
After reviewing his engineering team’s solution for the expandable habitat’s air handling subsystem, he round-filed the concept and re-designed it himself because, and I paraphrase, ‘I’ve built a bunch of hotels and they all have hvac systems’.
e-FTW
New electron smell
More noise by NASA about going to the moon.
NASA has taken a significant step toward human landings on the Moon
QUOTE: “As part of this Phase A offering, NASA says it will make "multiple awards" valued at between $300,000 to $9 million to various companies. Sources say to expect six to eight awards for these six-month studies to identify designs for potential vehicles. Companies may bid on one or all three elements of NASA's proposed landing system—a Transfer vehicle that will move astronauts to and from the Lunar Gateway to low-lunar orbit, a Descent vehicle that will carry humans down to the surface, and an Ascent vehicle that will carry the crew back to lunar orbit.”
What a ridiculously complicated way to get humans to the lunar surface, as opposed to an FSH/Starship that does all that with a single, 100% reusable, vehicle.
I hope that SpaceX does not make a proposal and keeps its focus on Mars.
NASA has taken a significant step toward human landings on the Moon
QUOTE: “As part of this Phase A offering, NASA says it will make "multiple awards" valued at between $300,000 to $9 million to various companies. Sources say to expect six to eight awards for these six-month studies to identify designs for potential vehicles. Companies may bid on one or all three elements of NASA's proposed landing system—a Transfer vehicle that will move astronauts to and from the Lunar Gateway to low-lunar orbit, a Descent vehicle that will carry humans down to the surface, and an Ascent vehicle that will carry the crew back to lunar orbit.”
What a ridiculously complicated way to get humans to the lunar surface, as opposed to an FSH/Starship that does all that with a single, 100% reusable, vehicle.
I hope that SpaceX does not make a proposal and keeps its focus on Mars.
Much as I would love to see SpaceX go it alone and begin the process for colonization, I don't see how they could afford to go it alone. Many of the larger goals would need governmental levels of funds to take the steps necessary to pull it off. SpaceX has a couple great ideas for funding but those might take more years to implement than Elon is willing to wait. There are definitely some negatives in working with NASA and accepting governmental funds that SpaceX is well aware of from the nit-picky delays of Commercial Crew and their oversight committees. That said, NASA wants to go to the Moon and Mars. SpaceX will clearly be the best way to make such a thing happen. NASA needs to come up with some way to hand SpaceX a lot of money while limiting their oversight and interference. That way NASA gets what they want and SpaceX can do what is necessary to actually achieve the goals that NASA is trying to reach. It's an interesting dilemma. SpaceX will probably continue to limit their search for government funds except for those funds with limited strings attached.
Yes, that would be great. But I don’t think it’s possible and I think ULA’s influence in Congress is too great to overcome. And a NASA run program for human landings on the Moon or Mars are simply going to take too long for Elon to tolerate. I realize that SpaceX cannot entirely self fund their Mars goal, but I am optimistic that Elon is gong to come up with a way to raise the necessary capital. It is literally his life’s work, and he’s pretty good at overcoming obstacles. Witness his tweet yesterday about “seeing a path” to building a Starship for less than the cost of an F9.
According to an Eric Berger tweet SpaceX to submit Moon lander proposal for latest NASA spaceflight competition
I assume that SpaceX will propose a Starship as their “Moon lander”. I don’t see how Congress will support that because it would mean diverting funding from SLS.
I assume that SpaceX will propose a Starship as their “Moon lander”. I don’t see how Congress will support that because it would mean diverting funding from SLS.
Starship can go to the moon, but it isn't entirely ideal for it. The thing is that Starship requires methane, which requires carbon, and there's very little carbon on the moon. For any plan involving ISRU, you would need a hydrolox-powered lander. Maybe it would be possible to make a hydrolox-version of the Raptor? That could allow Starship to be used for a lot of different purposes around the moon, only requiring fuel made on the moon. Will be interesting to see the proposal.
Are you talking about using Starship as a transport means between points on the moon? Seems a bit heavy/ inefficient versus a purpose built lunar hopper that Starship could deliver.
My understanding from an Elon talk is that Starship carries enough fuel for the return trip also. No need for Methane or Oxygen generation on the moon, unless using it as a stopping point for somewhere other than Earth.
Going to/from moon surface is doable with refuling in LEO, but if Starship could refuel on the moon, it would be able to make an almost unlimited number of trips between moon surface and LOP-G. With refueling on the moon, you could also go from LEO to moon surface and back to earth surface, with much less refueling required in LEO.
You may be right Starship is too massive for NASAs purposes, though. And it's an open question whether LOP-G will become a reality. It's hard to see much reason for it's existence. We already have a space station, next should be a base on moon surface, or mars surface.
As @mongo pointed out, Elon has stated that Starship can go from LEO to the Moon, land, and return. It doesn’t need to re-fuel on the Moon, which has a relatively small gravity well compared to Earth.
Assuming that NASA will not abandon it’s silly plan for the SLS to establish a “Lunar Gateway” station, Starship does seem like overkill as a lunar lander and ascent vehicle since it has no need to stop between Earth and Moon. Which is why I think any SpaceX proposal in response to the NASA request will not be selected.
The Lunar Gateway is like building a Hyperloop for non-stop trips between SF and LA and then requiring a mandatory stop in Kettleman City because the Congressman got a law passed saying that a Kettleman City Hyperloop station had to be built because, reasons...
See NASA emphasizing “speed” in its return to the Moon
Here is Eric Berger’s description of what NASA is soliciting bids for: “...the agency has released a broad agency announcement outlining its "architecture" for how this will be done. This will entail a transfer vehicle to go between the Lunar Gateway, in a high halo orbit around the Moon, and low lunar orbit. From there, the agency will use a descent vehicle to go down to the lunar surface, while an ascent vehicle would carry crew back to low lunar orbit.”
How absurdly complicated.
And, quote: “Most of the industry is likely to go along with this, but SpaceX has its own plans for developing a rocket (Super Heavy) and spacecraft (Starship) that could go directly to the lunar surface, without stopping at the Gateway. Bridenstine and NASA's chief of human spaceflight, Bill Gerstenmaier, both said the agency would welcome new ideas but that vehicles that did not fit this specific architecture would not be eligible for the current funding opportunity”.
Which is why I am so surprised that SpaceX has stated it is going to make a bid. I don’t see how Starship fits into that “specific architecture”.
Here is Eric Berger’s description of what NASA is soliciting bids for: “...the agency has released a broad agency announcement outlining its "architecture" for how this will be done. This will entail a transfer vehicle to go between the Lunar Gateway, in a high halo orbit around the Moon, and low lunar orbit. From there, the agency will use a descent vehicle to go down to the lunar surface, while an ascent vehicle would carry crew back to low lunar orbit.”
How absurdly complicated.
And, quote: “Most of the industry is likely to go along with this, but SpaceX has its own plans for developing a rocket (Super Heavy) and spacecraft (Starship) that could go directly to the lunar surface, without stopping at the Gateway. Bridenstine and NASA's chief of human spaceflight, Bill Gerstenmaier, both said the agency would welcome new ideas but that vehicles that did not fit this specific architecture would not be eligible for the current funding opportunity”.
Which is why I am so surprised that SpaceX has stated it is going to make a bid. I don’t see how Starship fits into that “specific architecture”.
Heck, all SpaceX needs are some sick vinyls:
Gateway -> yellow starship (tanker?)
Transfer vehicle -> blue starship
Descent vehicle -> green starship
Ascent vehicle-> red starship
If NASA is going to pay for full R&D, SpaceX can propose something entirely different that is compatible with NASA’s requirements. No reason for it to be anything like Starship.
Nikxice
Active Member
Notice that NASA's moon landing timeline is an optimistic 9 years away, 2028. That's the same span of time it took to get to the moon from scratch in the 1960's. I don't see how NASA can justify this tremendous complexity and expense to basically recreate the same goal. It's a shame that NASA is compelled to mix business and politics to get congressional support. Maybe an oxymoron, pork progress.
Perhaps worth mentioning Dr. John Houbolt and his successful effort to change the minds of NASA brass including Wernher von Braun. Houlbolt persuaded them to nix Earth Orbit Rendezvous using a giant NOVA rocket and downsize to the Saturn 5 while pushing for Lunar Orbit Rendezvous. From NASA's website..... "In November 1961, Houbolt took the bold step of skipping proper channels and writing a 9-page private letter directly to incoming Associate Administrator Dr. Robert C. Seamans. Describing himself somewhat melodramatically "as a voice in the wilderness," Houbolt protested LOR's exclusion from the NASA debate on the Apollo mission profile. "Do we want to go to the moon or not?" the Langley engineer asked." .....NASA's bureaucracy would likely stifle a Houbolt today. Since the collective talent at SpaceX is equipped with imagination on steroids, just a guess their Moon lander bid will contain some clever surprises.
Perhaps worth mentioning Dr. John Houbolt and his successful effort to change the minds of NASA brass including Wernher von Braun. Houlbolt persuaded them to nix Earth Orbit Rendezvous using a giant NOVA rocket and downsize to the Saturn 5 while pushing for Lunar Orbit Rendezvous. From NASA's website..... "In November 1961, Houbolt took the bold step of skipping proper channels and writing a 9-page private letter directly to incoming Associate Administrator Dr. Robert C. Seamans. Describing himself somewhat melodramatically "as a voice in the wilderness," Houbolt protested LOR's exclusion from the NASA debate on the Apollo mission profile. "Do we want to go to the moon or not?" the Langley engineer asked." .....NASA's bureaucracy would likely stifle a Houbolt today. Since the collective talent at SpaceX is equipped with imagination on steroids, just a guess their Moon lander bid will contain some clever surprises.
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