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Why? The reason why most of us really like SpaceX is that they seem to be driving the price (quite rapidly) of getting something into orbit down. If they can do it with half the money it takes Boeing, meet all the requirements, and have something as good or better than Boeing everyone wins.
SpaceX gets more money in a subsequent contract to put stuff in orbit. The drop in cost of putting things in orbit makes more people put things in orbit, thus driving more revenue to SpaceX.
If SpaceX only saved NASA $100M on a $4B contract who really cares?
Presumably the contracts are structured such that it is up to NASA's discretion whether or not to purchase more than 2 manned missions from each supplier. Ie., if after 2 manned missions each, NASA is comfortable with SpaceX, then they can ditch Boeing and only go with SpaceX. I am basing this speculation on reports that the contract is for 2-6 manned missions...
CliffG
Member
Well, to be fair, ULA has to pay someone else to design and build their engines (not sure about the rest of the system), they've got increasingly hungry Congresscritters to "support", and they need to milk increasing profits from projects like these.
chickensevil
Active Member
Boeing includes seat for a tourist - Yahoo News
So the important piece from this article is that it points out the fact that these contracts were apparently given out as a firm fixed price.
Thus means Boeing (and SpaceX) would be required to pay for any cost overruns and such. I don't know yet what other strings might be in the contract but most likely there are also Key Performance Indicators (KPIs) which means that the government can suck back the funding if they don't meet certain development milestones or other such things. Now this is speculation on my part, but given that it has already been stated as 2-6 launches, it very likely has funding tied to those additional launches. I would still like to know more about these contracts.
But the days of unlimited contract budgets seem to be over even for NASA. Which is great for the tax payers. I am glad that they didn't bid these as cheapest price wins types, as stated before I don't think that would have been the best way to go. Coming as someone who has seen my fair share of government contracts let me tell you that lowest bidder rarely goes over as well as everyone thinks it would. Cheaper is not always better... Note that I still think SpaceX has the better product here and will ultimately win out in the end.
So the important piece from this article is that it points out the fact that these contracts were apparently given out as a firm fixed price.
Thus means Boeing (and SpaceX) would be required to pay for any cost overruns and such. I don't know yet what other strings might be in the contract but most likely there are also Key Performance Indicators (KPIs) which means that the government can suck back the funding if they don't meet certain development milestones or other such things. Now this is speculation on my part, but given that it has already been stated as 2-6 launches, it very likely has funding tied to those additional launches. I would still like to know more about these contracts.
But the days of unlimited contract budgets seem to be over even for NASA. Which is great for the tax payers. I am glad that they didn't bid these as cheapest price wins types, as stated before I don't think that would have been the best way to go. Coming as someone who has seen my fair share of government contracts let me tell you that lowest bidder rarely goes over as well as everyone thinks it would. Cheaper is not always better... Note that I still think SpaceX has the better product here and will ultimately win out in the end.
Elon Goofs on Boeing CST
Interview is a few weeks old but I thought it was amusing how Elon describes Boeing's CST's landing capabilities and from what I've seen the first time he comments on the contract bid disparity btw Spacex and Boeing for the NASA contract.
Elon Musk: From space race to space war - Video - Business News
Interview is a few weeks old but I thought it was amusing how Elon describes Boeing's CST's landing capabilities and from what I've seen the first time he comments on the contract bid disparity btw Spacex and Boeing for the NASA contract.
Elon Musk: From space race to space war - Video - Business News
I often hear "Whoever wins this will have missed something in the specs." for some tenders.
I think that getting a foot and arm in the door are plenty. SpaceX now has a platform to really prove themselves. I also agreed that inflated contract prices need to become a thing of the past. As long as SpaceX is susffering from massive turnover or serious quality issues, more power to them.
Boeing, SpaceX told to stop work under crew contracts
"NASA has directed Boeing and SpaceX to halt activities under contracts awarded last month ..."
http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n1410/01cctcapprotest/#.VC4D3tDD-Ul
"NASA has directed Boeing and SpaceX to halt activities under contracts awarded last month ..."
http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n1410/01cctcapprotest/#.VC4D3tDD-Ul
No question about that. It's why SpaceX is kicking everyone's butt in the launch industry. I'll be surprised if SpaceX isn't ready over one year before Boeing.
How long before we see a Dragon V2 test at MacGregor similar to the F9R tests? That would be exciting.
hockeythug
Active Member
Looks like Sierra Nevada filed a protest saying they could do the same job as Boeing but $900m cheaper.
http://www.engadget.com/2014/10/06/nasas-space-taxis-delayed/
http://www.engadget.com/2014/10/06/nasas-space-taxis-delayed/
chickensevil
Active Member
Thanks for that, it helps explain why they put the brakes on SpaceX and Boeing. Normal contract protesting...
I understand why they are complaining and I am right there with them. I would love to have seen it being SpaceX vs Sierra Nevada, but I get why NASA was basically forced to go with Boeing if for no other reason than their previous launch experience (even if it is more expensive, some launch is better than no launch).
We're up and running again:
NASA Resumes Work on Commercial Crew Contracts | SpaceNews.com
and
Spaceflight Now NASA clears commercial crew contractors to resume work
Boeing too.
NASA Resumes Work on Commercial Crew Contracts | SpaceNews.com
and
Spaceflight Now NASA clears commercial crew contractors to resume work
Boeing too.
NASA Wins; Boeing and Space X Shuttle Contracts Ruled Valid
A judge has ruled that NASA did not do anything wrong. So we are moving ahead since the contracts stand as NASA ruled.
A judge has ruled that NASA did not do anything wrong. So we are moving ahead since the contracts stand as NASA ruled.
chickensevil
Active Member
To be clear it appears that all the Judge has done is side with NASA's decision to go ahead and have the two companies continue to execute under the contract even though it is currently going through a protest. Normally the work would be put on hold until protests are resolved in the event that it is determined that the contract needs to be modified or awarded to another party. NASA is accepting the risk by having Boeing and SpaceX continue under the contract even though it is in protest status.
The final decision looks like it won't be determined until Jan 5th. Given my past experiences with contract protests, it is very likely that Sierra Nevada could protest AGAIN after the Jan 5th ruling if they come up with another "reason" why they feel the contract was unfairly awarded. I will say that this is the first I have really looked at the protest process in this type of situation, most of the ones I have seen take place have been the incumbent contracting company protesting that they lost the rebid, and I haven't really experienced protests happening for a wholly new contract award like this, but I assume it follows similar processes.
Historically, protests have only had limited success in working out in the protestors favor. It is something ridiculous like only 5% of protests change the final outcome.
Boeing chief engineer says SpaceX - GeekWire
We like how SpaceX is undercutting our costs by half.
The small of fear is palpable.
We like how SpaceX is undercutting our costs by half.
The small of fear is palpable.
There will be a conference on NASA TV at noon on Monday with an update of what has happened and what will happen:
UPDATE - NASA, Boeing, SpaceX Discuss Plan for Launching American Astronauts from the U.S. in 2017 | NASA
Moderator - How about changing this thread to the Commercial Crew (CCtCap) and drop the announcement part?
UPDATE - NASA, Boeing, SpaceX Discuss Plan for Launching American Astronauts from the U.S. in 2017 | NASA
Moderator - How about changing this thread to the Commercial Crew (CCtCap) and drop the announcement part?
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