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Natural gas, a bridge to nowhere?

Discussion in 'Energy, Environment, and Policy' started by mspohr, Jul 13, 2018.

  1. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

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  2. rays427

    rays427 Member

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    It's interesting it shows 4hr battery storage will be cheaper but what about storing energy from day to day or month to month. Solar and wind are great but you still need some kind of backup. I think long term storage solutions will take more than a few years to be economic.
     
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  3. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

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    Studies have been done (don't have a handy reference now) which show that widely distributed wind and solar does not need long term storage. When you have lots of different sources in different locations, the total generation tends to stabilize.
     
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  4. SageBrush

    SageBrush 2018: Drain the Sewer

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    I'll take solar (and wind by extension.)

    The missing ingredient is an integrated, long distance grid.
     
  5. rays427

    rays427 Member

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    Although it tends to help it doesn't solve the problem. Just take a look at what's going on in Germany.
    Electricity generation in Germany | Energy Charts
     
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  6. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

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    I think CH4 aka 'Natural Gas' WILL be our long term storage... so the gas turbine infrastructure we're building may indeed be useful.
     
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  7. mblakele

    mblakele (つ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)つ

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    You may be right. I'd like to see those studies. Do they consider what happens to solar when a big volcano erupts, dimming solar production globally? Could climate change cause wind patterns to shift, stranding turbine capacity?

    Possible counterpoint: Varun Sivaram's book Taming the Sun: Innovations to Harness Solar Energy and Power the Planet (2018, MIT Press) argues that long-term storage is a critical piece of the renewable energy puzzle.
     
  8. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

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  9. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

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    Here's the updated Stanford study
    Avoiding blackouts with 100% renewable energy | Stanford News
    They analyse three different scenarios. Some use heat storage.

    Relevant section of original study.

    Matching Electric Power Supply with Demand
    ... In that study, it was found that matching large differences between high electrical
    demand and low renewable supply could be realized largely by using a combination
    of either (1) substantial CSP storage plus batteries with zero change in existing hy-
    dropower annual energy output or peak power discharge rate, (2) modest CSP stor-
    age with no batteries and zero change in the existing hydropower annual energy
    output but a substantial increase in hydropower’s peak discharge rate, (3) increases
    in CSP-storage, batteries, and heat pumps, but no thermal energy storage and no
    increase in hydropower’s peak discharge rate or annual energy output, or (4) a com-
    bination of (1), (2), and (3).
     
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  10. rays427

    rays427 Member

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    If you go to the monthly output the January 2018 wind and solar total output is 15.44 Twh and in July it was 6.06 Twh. That's a fairly big difference.
     
  11. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

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    Interesting that the January wind+sun is much greater than July. I guess they have a lot more wind (which benefits from winter winds) installed than sun.
     
  12. Brando

    Brando Active Member

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    Changing market place?

    Centralized Power Plants distributing electricity vs local production of electricity where it is used.

    DC long distance transmission make utility scale wind and solar competitive with Nukes & Coal plants?
    examples: Texas [MidWest] Winds and SW solar farms

    local storage (batteries) vs peaker plants

    Of course infrastructure changes take decades, but the trends seem positive. Have we reached the tipping point? I think (hope) so.

    good luck to the next generation
    China seems to be moving fast. And even Arab Gulf states are installing solar farms.
     
  13. SageBrush

    SageBrush 2018: Drain the Sewer

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    Which just goes to show you that each region will use solar and wind in varying fractions to match generation patterns.
     
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  14. Brando

    Brando Active Member

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  15. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

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    CNN: Power outage at GE.
    Power outage at GE

    GE's natural gas turbine business is collapsing causing serious problems for the company.
     
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  16. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

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    Should've bet on wind instead...

    This is going to become an increasingly dire problem... our economy is dependent on growth. The way it's structured it's unsustainable just sustaining.
     
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  17. mblakele

    mblakele (つ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)つ

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    Thanks. What did you think about the rebuttal to that Jacobson paper? Here’s some coverage:

    Science friction: Researchers rebut 100 percent renewables proposal
     
  18. Brando

    Brando Active Member

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    #18 Brando, Jul 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
    opinions of opinion and sometimes opinions of what some guy got reading a study
    Best to read original materials for yourself and get your own conclusions, yes?

    Better yet may be the "on going" windmills and Tesla battery demonstration. We all look forward to the next time any Natural Gas peaker plant gets started up - and why? many articles and you should pick your own sources - so do a search:

    Australia tesla battery project

    Seems to my reading that renewable/storage are much better than NuclearIndustry/CoalIndustry/NGIndustry will admit. AND I suspect the Koch brothers are spending plenty of money to get articles written that are anti-renewable, anti Tesla, anti-solar, no? side note: Wind prices in Washington state are under cutting the Hydo dam electricity production. BPA.gov had to raise rates on transmission costs AND electricity rates to make up for losses to the windmills which could price lower. [better for windmills to get some money rather than no money, so they will "sell below costs" rather than lose money.]
     
  19. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

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    Clearly Jacobsen et al made bold claims and clearly these have drawn criticism. The bold claims should be examined. I read the criticism and Jacobsen's rebuttal (http://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/CombiningRenew/PNASReplyClack.pdf).

    Jacobsen charts a path to clean energy. Solutions Project
    The criticism seems to be that it will take a lot of effort / money to build out renewables and there are political obstacles.
    It would have been useful for the critics to point to areas where they have a better plan but that doesn't seem to exist.
    What is the alternative?
     
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  20. brucet999

    brucet999 Active Member

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    What is CSP storage?
     

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