Natural gas, a bridge to nowhere?

[mspohr]

What is CSP storage?

Concentrating Solar Power thermal storage system
https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/articles/concentrating-solar-power-thermal-storage-system-basics

 

[Brando]

What is CSP storage?

How CSP's Thermal Energy Storage Works - SolarPACES

google is amazing

 

[mspohr]

Thanks. What did you think about the rebuttal to that Jacobson paper? Here’s some coverage:

Science friction: Researchers rebut 100 percent renewables proposal

Here's a proposal by LA Dept Water and Power to turn Hoover Dam into hydro storage:
The $3 Billion Plan to Turn Hoover Dam Into a Giant Battery
It would make a HUGE battery.

 

[SageBrush]

Here's a proposal by LA Dept Water and Power to turn Hoover Dam into hydro storage:
The $3 Billion Plan to Turn Hoover Dam Into a Giant Battery
It would make a HUGE battery.

This does not make sense to me at all, given the constraints of an intermittent, dammed river. Even classic pumped storage is quite difficult to do successfully.

As a guess, this sounds like a kludge to work around current inability to regulate dam flow.

 

[mspohr]

This does not make sense to me at all, given the constraints of an intermittent, dammed river. Even classic pumped storage is quite difficult to do successfully.

As a guess, this sounds like a kludge to work around current inability to regulate dam flow.

I don't understand... "current inability to regulate dam flow"? AFAIK This is not a problem.
Lake Mead is the reservoir which turns the "intermittent" flow of the Colorado into a reservoir which can be tapped at will.
The pumped storage project would take water from a lake about 20 miles downstream and pump it back up into Lake Mead where it would could be used to run the existing generators (which are only used 20%).

 

[SageBrush]

I don't understand... "current inability to regulate dam flow"?

Yeah ... that sentence barely made sense to me too, and I know what I mean.

I'm guessing that, similar to an inverter, the desire is to convert a fixed power to variable.

The only other advantage I can understand is a once a day time shift equal to the time it takes water to flow 20 miles. That hardly seems worth it.

 

[Uncle Paul]

I see water battery storage being, to great benefit in Costa Rica.

They flow water out of lake Verinal, through generators, to power the grid when it is needed in the day time. At night, when little energy is needed they pump the water back up into the lake for use the next day.

They can very finely control the flow and direction of water to optimize power generation and regeneration.

 

[SageBrush]

I came across this underwater version of pumped storage in Wikipedia

Underwater reservoirs[edit]
In March 2017 the research project StEnSea (Storing Energy at Sea) announced their successful completion of a four-week test of a pumped storage underwater reservoir. In this configuration a hollow sphere submerged and anchored at great depth acts as the lower reservoir, while the upper reservoir is the enclosing body of water. Electricity is created when water is let in via a reversible turbine integrated into the sphere. During off-peak hours the turbine changes direction and pumps the water out again, using "surplus" electricity from the grid. The quantity of power created when water is let in grows proportionally to the height of the column of water above the sphere, in other words: the deeper the sphere is located, the more potential energy it can store, which can be transformed into electric power. On the other hand, pumping the water back out at greater depths also uses up more power, since the turbine-turned-pump must act on the same entire column of water.

As such the energy storage capacity of the submerged reservoir is not governed by the gravitational energy in the traditional sense, but rather by the vertical pressure variation.

While StEnSea's test took place at a depth of 100 m in the fresh water Lake Constance, the technology is foreseen to be used in salt water at greater depths. Since the submerged reservoir needs only a connecting electrical cable, the depth at which it can be employed is limited only by the depth at which the turbine can function, currently limited to 700 m. The challenge of designing salt water pumped storage in this underwater configuration brings a range of advantages:

• No land area is required,
• No mechanical structure other than the electrical cable needs to span the distance of the potential energy difference,
• In the presence of sufficient seabed area multiple reservoirs can scale the storage capacity without limits,
• Should a reservoir collapse, the consequences would be limited apart from the loss of the reservoir itself,
• Evaporation from the upper reservoir has no effect on the energy conversion efficiency,
• Transmission of electricity between the reservoir and the grid can be established from a nearby offshore wind farm limiting transmission loss and obviating the need for onshore cabling permits.

A current commercial design featuring a sphere with an inner diameter of 30 m submerged to 700 m would correspond to a 20 MWh capacity which with a 5 MW turbine would lead to a 4-hour discharge time. An energy park with multiple such reservoirs would bring the storage cost to around a few eurocents per kWh with construction and equipment costs in the range €1,200-€1,400 per kW. To avoid excessive transmission cost and loss, the reservoirs should be placed off deep water coasts of densely populated areas, such as Norway, Spain, USA and Japan. With this limitation the concept would allow for worldwide electricity storage of close to 900 GWh.[44][45]

 

[nwdiver]

I came across this underwater version of pumped storage in Wikipedia

The idea that we can't make storage work given the dozens of options is far more absurd than the thought that we will figure it out...

 

[SageBrush]

The idea that we can't make storage work given the dozens of options is far more absurd than the thought that we will figure it out...

I hope I was not misunderstood, the underwater pumped storage of off-shore wind sounds really clever, although I admit to not knowing any details.

 

[Brando]

Here's a proposal by LA Dept Water and Power to turn Hoover Dam into hydro storage:
The $3 Billion Plan to Turn Hoover Dam Into a Giant Battery
It would make a HUGE battery.

Is a great way to increase [yet again, thanks Trump/Obama/Bush] US national debt - great for treasury bonds I guess ?? Only $3 billion and the pipe and cement companies would love the extra work. Just how many/much Tesla batteries would that buy? Probably cheaper AND faster to build and could be distributed to WHERE the actual electricity usage takes place [distributed vs centralized].

Tesla battery projects seem to come in on time and at budget.
Tesla and PG&E are working on a massive ‘up to 1.1 GWh’ Powerpack battery system

Seems we can almost always count on government to find the worst most expensive solutions.
Seems most government large projects cost over runs are 2x; 3x; 4x; 5x original budgets
google search: cost over run Federal projects - and pick your projects, many are listed]

 

[mspohr]

already is a hydro [storage] electricity dam - color me confused

The idea is that they can pump water from downstream back up into the dam using surplus electricity then at a later time, release it again to re-generate electricity when needed.

 

[SageBrush]

The idea is that they can pump water from downstream back up into the dam using surplus electricity then at a later time, release it again to re-generate electricity when needed.

Except that the down-river water does not hang around in a reservoir until the sun is shining brightly and there is excess power on the grid.

Maybe the scheme is a good idea, but I cannot understand it.

This subject dovetails with my questions from a few months ago why large scale hydro is not used more in the evening hours when PV and wind are insufficient. I don't think anybody was quite sure but people suggested mandatory water release and contracts as possible answers. If the former then pumping back is not going to fly; and if the latter, changing the contracts will be a better and cheaper idea than back-pumping.

 

[nwdiver]

This subject dovetails with my questions from a few months ago why large scale hydro is not used more in the evening hours when PV and wind are insufficient. I don't think anybody was quite sure but people suggested mandatory water release and contracts as possible answers. If the former then pumping back is not going to fly; and if the latter, changing the contracts will be a better and cheaper idea than back-pumping.

Yes; My understanding is that most large scale hydro plants have a minimum output to maintain river flow. They can load follow to some extent but they're not as dynamic as you would think.

 

[mspohr]

Except that the down-river water does not hang around in a reservoir until the sun is shining brightly and there is excess power on the grid.

Maybe the scheme is a good idea, but I cannot understand it.

This subject dovetails with my questions from a few months ago why large scale hydro is not used more in the evening hours when PV and wind are insufficient. I don't think anybody was quite sure but people suggested mandatory water release and contracts as possible answers. If the former then pumping back is not going to fly; and if the latter, changing the contracts will be a better and cheaper idea than back-pumping.

TFA says that they are using a downstream lake to draw water from to pump back up hill. Lake is kind of like a small downstream reservoir.

 

[Brando]

The idea is that they can pump water from downstream back up into the dam using surplus electricity then at a later time, release it again to re-generate electricity when needed.

sorry you read my unedited post. I read the proposal then did the above post. You'd think I'd be mature enough to read before I post sadly it seems you'd be wrong. - sorry about that.

Take away: I suspect Tesla battery much more reasonable.
Tesla battery projects seem to come in on time and at budget.
Tesla and PG&E are working on a massive ‘up to 1.1 GWh’ Powerpack battery system

How big a battery would $3 billion dollars buy? How about distributed batteries vs all in one place.
PS- the few fish left might not enjoy all this pumping of the river's water.

 

[mspohr]

sorry you read my unedited post. I read the proposal then did the above post. You'd think I'd be mature enough to read before I post sadly it seems you'd be wrong. - sorry about that.

Take away: I suspect Tesla battery much more reasonable.
Tesla battery projects seem to come in on time and at budget.
Tesla and PG&E are working on a massive ‘up to 1.1 GWh’ Powerpack battery system

How big a battery would $3 billion dollars buy? How about distributed batteries vs all in one place.
PS- the few fish left might not enjoy all this pumping of the river's water.

Yes, pumped storage has a long 10 year lead time and environmental effects. They say it will be cheaper than batteries but what about batteries 10 years from now? Distributed storage has advantages.

 

[SageBrush]

They say it will be cheaper than batteries

Like other alternative energies, the trick is to choose wisely based on location. Two projects in Australia, one of them in Tazmania look promising.

As a practical matter I think the biggest obstacle to on-shore pumped storage gaining traction is the large initial capital outlay. It leaves very little room for business error so all the learning curve will have to be with government backing.

 

[Brando]

side note: Storing Colorado river water for a utility scale electric storage - who can think this is a good idea?
We could use more Colorado river water, not less - drought vs brown/black out? which would you choose?
What fish could survive? What would the water temperature become?

10 years to build? perhaps less than a nuclear reactor?

Flow batteries might well be cheaper for utility scale batteries:
Flow Batteries | Energy Storage Association

 

[mspohr]

side note: Storing Colorado river water for a utility scale electric storage - who can think this is a good idea?
We could use more Colorado river water, not less - drought vs brown/black out? which would you choose?
What fish could survive? What would the water temperature become?

10 years to build? perhaps less than a nuclear reactor?

Flow batteries might well be cheaper for utility scale batteries:
Flow Batteries | Energy Storage Association

The pumped storage system doesn't use water like agriculture, etc. It just moves it up hill then down.