Natural gas vehicles (NGVs, CNG)

[vfx]

Honda pulls out of CNG

The Auto Channel

Amidst charges that embattled American Honda is systematically suppressing its compressed natural gas (CNG) vehicle program, the company has suddenly fueled that impression by throwing into bankruptcy its wholly-owned CNG refueling company, Fuelmaker....

And it's not pretty...

 

[mt2]

That's not going to make T. Boone Pickens very happy.

 

[Doug_G]

I heard a short talk about this car last night.

2011 Honda Civic GX Overview - Official Site

Apparently the idea is you have a small compressor in your garage that compresses natural gas from your home heating hookup and pumps it into the car. The range is pretty good.

 

[TEG]

It has been around for a while.
It gets mentioned on the forum occasionally. For instance, here are a couple:

CNG REEVs?
Hydrogen vs. Battery

 

[Tommy]

Apparently the idea is you have a small compressor in your garage that compresses natural gas from your home heating hookup and pumps it into the car. The range is pretty good.

According to the site below, the "small compressor" uses 800 watts of eletricity to compress gas for 50 miles of travel.

Knowledge Base - Fox Service Company

 

[Doug_G]

According to the site below, the "small compressor" uses 800 watts of eletricity to compress gas for 50 miles of travel. [/url]

For four hours... which makes it 3.2 kWh, or 64 Wh/mile. That's about 20% of an EV right there.

 

[vfx]

For four hours... which makes it 3.2 kWh, or 64 Wh/mile. That's about 20% of an EV right there.

Well that huge news to me. 2nd only to range anxiety is charge time on people's list of why not to get an EV. So a NG car has little philling infrastructure and a long "charge" time? Nice to have this bit of info when someone says, "Why an EV? Why not a NG car?"

 

[TEG]

Well that huge news to me.

Did you read the old post I linked before?:
Hydrogen vs. Battery

 

[Doug_G]

Well that huge news to me. 2nd only to range anxiety is charge time on people's list of why not to get an EV. So a NG car has little philling infrastructure and a long "charge" time? Nice to have this bit of info when someone says, "Why an EV? Why not a NG car?"

Of course I could point out that this is just garage fueling. Presumably an industrial-sized compressor at a proper filling station could do the job a lot faster.

 

[Tommy]

Did you read the old post I linked before?:
Hydrogen vs. Battery

I am guilty of not reading either, until your second mention of the link. In my mind I didn't make the connection of the discussion of natural gas filling to a Hydrogen vs. Battery discussion.:wink:

 

[doug]

Of course I could point out that this is just garage fueling. Presumably an industrial-sized compressor at a proper filling station could do the job a lot faster.

Yes, you could fill CNG as fast has HFCV advocates claim you could fill with compressed H2 (but with a fuel that is much more energy dense by volume). So it's possible to fill in a few minutes.
HyFLEET:CUTE :: Technology :: Hydrogen Refuelling

Since the only "efficient" way to make hydrogen is from natural gas, I've often argued why bother. CNG ICE vehicles seem to have all the benefits of HFCVs at a much lower cost and can leverage an existing infrastructure.

 

[vfx]

I am guilty of not reading either, until your second mention of the link. In my mind I didn't make the connection of the discussion of natural gas filling to a Hydrogen vs. Battery discussion.:wink:

Same here.

 

[richkae]

infrastructure

If you could put a CNG compressor into your home and everybody does then CNG would need near as many filling stations as we need level 3 charging stations for EVs.
Which is less than gas stations, because you could always leave home full.
( Maybe about the ratio of CNG fillup time ( ~5 mins ) to level 3 charge time ( 20 - 40 min )
However, if only a fraction of people chose to put in a home CNG compressor we would still need a great many more CNG filling stations than level 3 charging stations.

I for one, am totally comfortable with a 240 volt outlet in my garage for my EV. I am not as comfortable with a CNG compressor.

If you drive your EV somewhere that only has a 110 volt plug, it is slow but you can still charge and use the car.
If you go somwhere without a CNG filling station you are screwed - thus the bootstrapping problem of putting in CNG infrastructure is huge.

 

[vfx]

My house runs on electricity.

And propane.

 

[TEG]

So a NG car has little philling infrastructure and a long "charge" time? Nice to have this bit of info when someone says, "Why an EV? Why not a NG car?"

Also keep in mind that the home CNG compressors tend to be noisy.

 

[doug]

VIDEO: T. Boone Pickens on the New Natural Gas Vehicle Act: Cleantech News and Analysis

...
The whole idea behind the NAT GAS Act is to move big rigs and fleet vehicles onto natural gas. Pickens thinks the bill could enable the production of 8 million 18-wheelers powered by natural gas, over several years, which he says could cut out half of the oil imported from OPEC to the U.S. These natural gas vehicles would largely be made by auto-makers — compared to vehicles that are retrofitted to run on natural gas — and if signed into law, the Act could essentially spur an entire new industry around natural gas vehicle manufacturing.
...

 

[doug]

Chrysler Goes CNG By 2017 | The Truth About Cars

 

[doug]

Official: CNG Powered Civic To Be Rolled-Out Nationwide | The Truth About Cars

GM, Chrysler and Honda to Offer Natural Gas Cars - Business News - Energy Digital

natural gas cars are far cheaper to produce than lithium-ion powered electric vehicles. For example, the Honda Civic GX CNG will run on compressed natural gas and cost just $25,490 compared to the all-electric Chevy Volt, which will cost $41,000, or the $32,000 Nissan Leaf (both considered the most affordable of commercial electric cars). The Civic GX CNG is due for release next year in all 50 U.S. states.

 

[TEG]

In California, with hybrid Prius & Civic soon to be disallowed from the carpool lanes, it has caused interest to increase in pure EVs, but also I gather the NGVs since they too get the white stickers which aren't expiring anytime soon. To some it is just a minor perk, but to others who cherish lone carpool access, their new car shopping list will be limited to cars that qualify for the EV/NGV stickers.
On the other hand, when Plug-in Prius gets carpool access next year I imagine it will take some sales away from Civic NGV. They have about a 6 month window of opportunity in California right now.

 

[TEG]

Anyone interested in CNG vehicles might want to check out this forum:
Natural Gas Vehicle Owner Community - Home