Natural Gas vs Heat pumps for heating

[nwdiver]

And the main contributor to lack of fuel during the TX outage was the conversion of the pipeline pumps from natural gas to electric. Sure, the electric pumps are more efficient, but if the electricity drops out for any reason, no more gas. The old way, as long as there was gas, the pumps were powered and gas was flowing....

Source? I've seen nothing saying pump or compressor station failures was the primary issue. Mostly seems to be failure to properly insulate gas lines which caused water in the line to condense, freeze and block the flow of gas. Even if there were pumps taken offline due to lack of electricity the power probably wouldn't have failed if the gas lines had been properly winterized.

'It is possible to “winterize” natural gas power plants, natural gas production, wind turbines and other energy infrastructure, experts said, through practices like insulating pipelines. These upgrades help prevent major interruptions in other states with regularly cold weather.'​

​

Regardless; the point is that we need to rapidly accelerate the electrification of buildings. Prohibiting gas connections to new construction would be a good first step.

 

[CSFTN]

I have seen my heat pump run at 11F with NO need for any resistance heat. The newer inverter models are very efficient. Remember absolute zero is - 460F so even at 20F there is a lot of heat available.

Sorry if I missed it elsewhere, but which heat pump do you have?

 

[dhrivnak]

Sorry if I missed it elsewhere, but which heat pump do you have?

It is an Amana full inverter unit. I am quite impressed with it.

 

[brkaus]

And the main contributor to lack of fuel during the TX outage was the conversion of the pipeline pumps from natural gas to electric. Sure, the electric pumps are more efficient, but if the electricity drops out for any reason, no more gas. The old way, as long as there was gas, the pumps were powered and gas was flowing....

And if this is true, they didn’t plan very well (except for the money making part) -

As Texas Went Dark, the State Paid Natural-Gas Companies to Go Offline

A program meant to reduce industrial electricity use during emergencies contributed to power plants not getting fuel during February’s freeze, a Wall Street Journal analysis found.

www.wsj.com

 

[charlesj]

.... I assume it has a plumbed return line. ...

There are two ways it can be returned. Check it out.
One is to have copper pipe running into the cold side either on top of the tank or at the bottom drain valve with another valve teed off to drain the tank.
The other is to have a one way check valve between the hot and cold lines connected at the last fixture if it is a series hot water line.
My hot water or cold, is not in series as such except where double fixtures are located.
I had one of those setup as well but didn't work well at all.

 

[strider]

There are two ways it can be returned. Check it out.
One is to have copper pipe running into the cold side either on top of the tank or at the bottom drain valve with another valve teed off to drain the tank.
The other is to have a one way check valve between the hot and cold lines connected at the last fixture if it is a series hot water line.
My hot water or cold, is not in series as such except where double fixtures are located.
I had one of those setup as well but didn't work well at all.

Thanks. Mine is the first. The recirc pump is hooked up to the bottom of the tank, pushing water into it, with the drain tee'd off of the pump connection. The regular cold and hot lines are on the top of the tank.

 

[tfan2018]

I want to replace my gas heater with hybrid electric after my solar and pw+ got installed. But the sub panels has a sticker now warning to not add additional loads. I’m wondering when the 120v drop in hybrid electric heaters will be available

 

[nwdiver]

I want to replace my gas heater with hybrid electric after my solar and pw+ got installed. But the sub panels has a sticker now warning to not add additional loads. I’m wondering when the 120v drop in hybrid electric heaters will be available

That sticker should only be on the subpanel for the solar. It's possible your installer got a little giddy with their stickers and put them places they didn't belong. Can you post a photo of your main panel?

 

[Vines]

That sticker should only be on the subpanel for the solar. It's possible your installer got a little giddy with their stickers and put them places they didn't belong. Can you post a photo of your main panel?

It looks like Tesla is installing stickers that simply say "CAUTION Do Not Add New Loads" to any essential loads panels, which is a different sticker than the required one for 705.12.b.2.3.c

 

[holeydonut]

In case you all want a bit of entertainment on the electrification/ grid topic this morning… John Oliver pokes at the Grid.

 

[mspohr]

In case you all want a bit of entertainment on the electrification/ grid topic this morning… John Oliver pokes at the Grid.

Yes, the grid is in bad shape and needs investment.
However, we need to consider if the current grid model is obsolete. It relies on large fixed generation and long distance transmission.
Might it be better to move to a more decentralized model with local small scale generation (homes and businesses) with local storage?

 

[holeydonut]

Yes, the grid is in bad shape and needs investment.
However, we need to consider if the current grid model is obsolete. It relies on large fixed generation and long distance transmission.
Might it be better to move to a more decentralized model with local small scale generation (homes and businesses) with local storage?

Yeah but what are the local source options? If we move to EV’s, heat pumps, electric cooktops, electric water heaters, and radiant flooring, etc there’s too much demand and solar won’t cut it unless you’re @h2ofun.

Residential wind isn’t an option for the masses, and biomass burners aren’t pragmatic (plus they are fairly polluting). When will we get the Mr Fusion in back to the future?

 

[mspohr]

Yeah but what are the local source options? If we move to EV’s, heat pumps, electric cooktops, electric water heaters, and radiant flooring, etc there’s too much demand and solar won’t cut it unless you’re @h2ofun.

Residential wind isn’t an option for the masses, and biomass burners aren’t pragmatic (plus they are fairly polluting). When will we get the Mr Fusion in back to the future?

We really have only scratched the surface of small residential and commercial solar and storage. As an example, One recent study found that solar on half of residential roofs could provide all the energy the US uses. Currently, we have just a small fraction of that.

 

[holeydonut]

We really have only scratched the surface of small residential and commercial solar and storage. As an example, One recent study found that solar on half of residential roofs could provide all the energy the US uses. Currently, we have just a small fraction of that.

That theory only holds true if the solar could somehow be spread across an entire 24 hour daily cycle and then spread out over an annual cycle as well. It's the same principle that a home can be NEM-Neutral on a full year true up cycle. But clearly that home has no solar power from dusk to dawn. And the home over produces in the summer and under produces in the winter.

So a home like h2ofun's needs 5 batteries to even sniff at trying to spread out a daily self-powered generation + consumption. And he needs a massive solar array to eek out a daily break-even during the winter.

But even these scenarios require ideal weather conditions. If there are consecutive days of cloud-cover, or if one of his SE inverters dies, he'll need a fall-back option to get energy from the grid. Gas/propane generators may be a short term option, but ultimately he'll still rely on the grid to be around simply because he doesn't have enough on-site generation and he needs even more batteries to be truly off grid.

And that's kind of the problem. If the grid simply becomes an empty-shell/fall-back option, then it won't get the investment necessary to be around when we actually need it. Like PG&E throws a lot of money at this existing grid (in a very inefficient and wasteful manner), and look what it gets us. What we need is PG&E to be smarter about its investments, and that won't happen under the existing model since PG&E is literally guaranteed more profits if it wastes more money.

So PG&E blames homeowners for defecting away and harming their ability to operate. While homeowners attempt to defect away because PG&E sucks. Unfortunately, California policy makers broadly side with PG&E since PG&E has lobbies while homeowners have nobody.

 

[BGbreeder]

I hope that storage and generation options are available both locally and nationally for optimal resiliency. For example, look at Texas, which would have benefitted from being able to utilize additional generation sources last winter (long distance interconnects), or California during PSPS events (local storage & generation). Having more generation sources in the mix likely means greater capacity to meet demand on cloudy, windless days. Power is one of those "just in time" things that you have to plan for the worst case, and keep the excess capacity around during "normal" times. Local storage, grid level storage, and long distance transmission interconnects all help.

Other parts of the world have more resilient and reliable grids than the US. We have settled for a low standard for a long time; then again, power is very cheap in the US.

All the best,

BG

 

[Zythryn]

Yeah but what are the local source options? If we move to EV’s, heat pumps, electric cooktops, electric water heaters, and radiant flooring, etc there’s too much demand and solar won’t cut it unless you’re @h2ofun.

Residential wind isn’t an option for the masses, and biomass burners aren’t pragmatic (plus they are fairly polluting). When will we get the Mr Fusion in back to the future?

Solar works very well for many. Local community solar works well for many others.
Keep in mind, most people that recommend a "more decentralized system" are not suggesting absolutely no centralized power generation. They are just suggesting less centralized power generation.
Some regions will be able to do this more than others and some households will be able to do more of this.

 

[mspohr]

That theory only holds true if the solar could somehow be spread across an entire 24 hour daily cycle and then spread out over an annual cycle as well. It's the same principle that a home can be NEM-Neutral on a full year true up cycle. But clearly that home has no solar power from dusk to dawn. And the home over produces in the summer and under produces in the winter.

So a home like h2ofun's needs 5 batteries to even sniff at trying to spread out a daily self-powered generation + consumption. And he needs a massive solar array to eek out a daily break-even during the winter.

But even these scenarios require ideal weather conditions. If there are consecutive days of cloud-cover, or if one of his SE inverters dies, he'll need a fall-back option to get energy from the grid. Gas/propane generators may be a short term option, but ultimately he'll still rely on the grid to be around simply because he doesn't have enough on-site generation and he needs even more batteries to be truly off grid.

And that's kind of the problem. If the grid simply becomes an empty-shell/fall-back option, then it won't get the investment necessary to be around when we actually need it. Like PG&E throws a lot of money at this existing grid (in a very inefficient and wasteful manner), and look what it gets us. What we need is PG&E to be smarter about its investments, and that won't happen under the existing model since PG&E is literally guaranteed more profits if it wastes more money.

So PG&E blames homeowners for defecting away and harming their ability to operate. While homeowners attempt to defect away because PG&E sucks. Unfortunately, California policy makers broadly side with PG&E since PG&E has lobbies while homeowners have nobody.

I am talking about distributed local generation, storage and use. This is at the community/city level and relies on the local grid. (Not individual household level)
The long distance transmission system is a different issue where power is moved over long distances from large generating plants to local grids. If you have robust local generation and storage, the need for long distance transmission is reduced.

Tesla has set up local solar generation and storage resources and registered them as energy providers in Texas, California and Germany.

Tesla Energy Ventures Will Provide Retail Electric Services In Texas - CleanTechnica

Sign up for daily news updates from CleanTechnica on email. Or follow us on Google News! According to the Public Utility Commission of Texas, Tesla Energy Ventures, a subsidiary of Tesla, will provide retail electric services throughout the area serviced by the Electric Reliability Council of...

cleantechnica.com

Here's some more information:

Distributed generation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[holeydonut]

I am talking about distributed local generation, storage and use. This is at the community/city level and relies on the local grid. (Not individual household level)
The long distance transmission system is a different issue where power is moved over long distances from large generating plants to local grids. If you have robust local generation and storage, the need for long distance transmission is reduced.

Tesla has set up local solar generation and storage resources and registered them as energy providers in Texas, California and Germany.

Tesla Energy Ventures Will Provide Retail Electric Services In Texas - CleanTechnica

Sign up for daily news updates from CleanTechnica on email. Or follow us on Google News! According to the Public Utility Commission of Texas, Tesla Energy Ventures, a subsidiary of Tesla, will provide retail electric services throughout the area serviced by the Electric Reliability Council of...

cleantechnica.com

Here's some more information:

Distributed generation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So I think what you're you're saying is the Roseville, CA model is more like the right model? Where Roseville has its own generation sources (edit: mostly gas) plus some community solar + batteries (still in pilot). Roseville still sources from the Federal DOE WAPA, and gets general energy resiliency from this federal energy market (so Roseville doesn't go dark if one of their gas turbines goes offline). But, Roseville maintains its own transmission lines and doesn't really share with neighboring cities or PG&E (only shares with the WAPA).

I think the challenge I've seen in this Roseville model is that it would be too difficult for the city itself to make the investments necessary to rapidly grow it's green generation (with big ole solar farms, lots of turbines, and biomass). And since there's definitely no hydro going on there. Because those other sources require a lot of money to boot up, a city like Roseville (about 130,000 residents) lacks the buying power to get those projects running.

 

[h2ofun]

I hope that storage and generation options are available both locally and nationally for optimal resiliency. For example, look at Texas, which would have benefitted from being able to utilize additional generation sources last winter (long distance interconnects), or California during PSPS events (local storage & generation). Having more generation sources in the mix likely means greater capacity to meet demand on cloudy, windless days. Power is one of those "just in time" things that you have to plan for the worst case, and keep the excess capacity around during "normal" times. Local storage, grid level storage, and long distance transmission interconnects all help.

Other parts of the world have more resilient and reliable grids than the US. We have settled for a low standard for a long time; then again, power is very cheap in the US.

All the best,

BG

And who pays for this?

 

[holeydonut]

Solar works very well for many. Local community solar works well for many others.
Keep in mind, most people that recommend a "more decentralized system" are not suggesting absolutely no centralized power generation. They are just suggesting less centralized power generation.
Some regions will be able to do this more than others and some households will be able to do more of this.

Do we actually have examples of a local community solar project that is applicable as a model to emulate?

The Jonathan Scott (taller Property Brothers Guy) documentary highlighted a use of Tribal lands to deploy a community solar project on a reservation. But that's not really scalable for "normal" US or California cities/counties where there are lots of roadblocks related to the use of the land near that city/county.

I live in Contra Costa County and we have a community choice aggregator known as MCE. They kind of market/trick residents here into thinking their "deep green" renewable energy tier buys power from a community solar project. But really all MCE does is use the rate to buy energy credits to source energy from "green generation credits". So somewhere out there is a solar farm that MCE is helping subsidize (through those credits). But the only way MCE would work is if PG&E's transmission lines are fully working since there is no community-based solar farm in this model (no community micro grid).

I think Tesla's attempt to equip an entire new subdivision with solar + powerwalls is cool. But PG&E would say it harms poor folks. And is not applicable for the millions of existing homes already in place. And this new subdivision is still grid-tied and ultimately relies on the same large-scale grid and infrastructure.

Other than a small sliver of a renewable solar project within the Roseville, CA example from above, I just can't find reasonably deployed "local community solar" that is working. I do see some community proposals that would need a huge infusion of money. Unfortunately, PG&E thinks they should be the ones to deploy those new solutions at the macro level. And California policymakers tend to agree with PG&E. Sad.