Natural Gas vs Heat pumps for heating

[strider]

Jandy is an American heatpump I believe. It does not work well when temp drops below 40 F, as is the case with most heat pump. On the other hand, inverter HP that is used in cold weather countries like the Arctic model I posted above works well when it goes to -F.
We will see but I think anytime we can use HP, it is a win for the environment.

Yep, 40F is about its limit (ours is 5 years old so the newer ones may be better). But that is fine for us. We are not "hot tub on New Year's Day" people. We use the heat pump to extend our swimming season and it is perfect for that. The kids will be swimming this weekend and we usually still have the pool open on Halloween. The poolbuilder was already nervous about installing the heat pump (all of their customers choose a gas heater) so I just went w/ what they wanted to do. Plus all of the equipment is the same manufacturer so it all integrated with the automation.

They left space on the pad to add a gas heater in series but we don't have gas service at our place so would need a propane tank and that whole thing.

 

[h2ofun]

I agree with you for new construction. But I think PG&E slamming existing homes with monster rate hikes on natural gas seems like a poorly thought out way to get people to reduce consumption of natural gas.

What's worse is there is no buzz about PG&E's proposed NG rate hike at all in the news. I posted about it in the Energy Policy forum but people are too busy arguing about global warming to really care about getting absolutely bamboozled trying to keep their family warm in California.

And that buying an EV will save the world

 

[tfan2018]

For Rheem, is it more efficient to run in energy saver mode or heat pump only mode?

 

[mspohr]

For Rheem, is it more efficient to run in energy saver mode or heat pump only mode?

Heat pump only mode is more efficient but slower recovery

 

[EL0NTRK]

I've installed several Chiltrix air to water heat pumps and they work well below zero.

Nice. Do they have one for pool and spa?

 

[mspohr]

Nice. Do they have one for pool and spa?

I don't think they market specifically to pool and spa. This would require a heat exchanger from the glycol heat loop to the pool water loop similar to their hot water tank.
I have a spa and will be installing a pool soon so I am interested to see if I can use one of my Chiltrix units (current DHW and hydronic heating) to heat these. I've sent an inquiry to them.

 

[strider]

For Rheem, is it more efficient to run in energy saver mode or heat pump only mode?

Heat Pump only mode is most efficient. I have a recirc pump and the manual stated not to use Energy Saver mode if you have a recirc pump. I did try it for half a day and the whole thing shut off, saying "no demand" and the tank temp dropped to 100F (I leave it at 120F) before I noticed it and switched it back to Heat Pump.

For my normal use (family of 4 with pre-teen kids) 80g is plenty in Heat Pump only mode. When we have guests I will switch it to High Demand mode to help with recovery.

 

[BGbreeder]

Heat Pump only mode is most efficient. I have a recirc pump and the manual stated not to use Energy Saver mode if you have a recirc pump. I did try it for half a day and the whole thing shut off, saying "no demand" and the tank temp dropped to 100F (I leave it at 120F) before I noticed it and switched it back to Heat Pump.

For my normal use (family of 4 with pre-teen kids) 80g is plenty in Heat Pump only mode. When we have guests I will switch it to High Demand mode to help with recovery.

Wow. That is a deal killer here. Do you know how/why a recirculating pump causes it to shutdown? It seems odd. Naively, it would be just like a tank cooling off slowly.

All the best,

BG

 

[brkaus]

A few months ago, we started building our retirement home. It will be fully electric house (has the gas line run into the house just for back up and future resellability).
It will have a Tesla solar roof with several PWs. HVAC will be Mitsubishi heat pump system.
Found out that you can get heat pump pool water heater using inverter technology similar to Mitsubishi from Canada.
Here is what we getting Heat Pumps – Pool & Spa Cost - Arctic Heat Pumps

If you don’t mind, can you provide feedback on how it works? If been shopping for similar and that’s ine in my list.

3 months of electric heat has killed me.

 

[brkaus]

Wow. That is a deal killer here. Do you know how/why a recirculating pump causes it to shutdown? It seems odd. Naively, it would be just like a tank cooling off slowly.

All the best,

BG

I’d guess it just cycles way more. Going to depend on how well the loop is insulated. My builder didn’t feel any of the plumbing in the slab was worth the extra effort of insulation.

Funny, he also used to own the central propane service in our neighborhood.

 

[EL0NTRK]

If you don’t mind, can you provide feedback on how it works? If been shopping for similar and that’s ine in my list.

3 months of electric heat has killed me.

Absolutely. If you are interested in high performance house and getting away from inefficient appliances, take a look a Matt Risinger on Youtube. He is a builder in Austin, TX that has a large following. I take lot of idea from his builds.

 

[BGbreeder]

I’d guess it just cycles way more. Going to depend on how well the loop is insulated. My builder didn’t feel any of the plumbing in the slab was worth the extra effort of insulation.

Funny, he also used to own the central propane service in our neighborhood.

Thanks, that would make some sense, though I wonder if the temperature hysteresis could be adjusted so that it did not cycle more often.

All the best,

BG

 

[EL0NTRK]

You can and should put a timer on the recir pump to avoid the issue.

 

[brkaus]

Absolutely. If you are interested in high performance house and getting away from inefficient appliances, take a look a Matt Risinger on Youtube. He is a builder in Austin, TX that has a large following. I take lot of idea from his builds.

Thanks!

I’ve watched Risinger’s stuff. Most of it is great! My house is a builder spec that’s a piece of “work”.

Actually spending today trenching the plumbing over to where I’d put the pool heat pump. Terrible work. I’ve made about 18 ft so far. Half way there. I’m currently debating if I insulate the circulation lines under ground or not, and if so, how.

Real problem is the arctic heat pumps are out of stock and prices have gone up from what I can tell.

 

[Big Earl]

Thanks!

I’ve watched Risinger’s stuff. Most of it is great! My house is a builder spec that’s a piece of “work”.

Actually spending today trenching the plumbing over to where I’d put the pool heat pump. Terrible work. I’ve made about 18 ft so far. Half way there. I’m currently debating if I insulate the circulation lines under ground or not, and if so, how.

Real problem is the arctic heat pumps are out of stock and prices have gone up from what I can tell.

Daikin does hydronic heat pumps, as well. They should work just fine for pools, spas, radiant floors, domestic hot water, etc. Not sure what their supply chain is like right now, but worth looking into.

 

[BGbreeder]

Thanks!

I’ve watched Risinger’s stuff. Most of it is great! My house is a builder spec that’s a piece of “work”.

Actually spending today trenching the plumbing over to where I’d put the pool heat pump. Terrible work. I’ve made about 18 ft so far. Half way there. I’m currently debating if I insulate the circulation lines under ground or not, and if so, how.

Real problem is the arctic heat pumps are out of stock and prices have gone up from what I can tell.

Lots of options; the simplest is blue foam, extending a 6-12" either side of the pipe, over and under it, ideally on the sides as well.

Premade solutions;
Quad insulated PEX piping inside drainpipe, which may give you ideas for how to DIY...

Just make sure that you have a good way to get any water percolating through to keep going, so the area around the pipes stays dry.

All the best,

BG

 

[EL0NTRK]

Daikin does hydronic heat pumps, as well. They should work just fine for pools, spas, radiant floors, domestic hot water, etc. Not sure what their supply chain is like right now, but worth looking into.

do you have a link to their models?

 

[strider]

Wow. That is a deal killer here. Do you know how/why a recirculating pump causes it to shutdown? It seems odd. Naively, it would be just like a tank cooling off slowly.

All the best,

BG

I don't know. It's just in that Energy Saving mode. Manual doesn't offer any reason for why they say not to use that mode w/ a recirc pump. All other modes work perfectly. No idea why it decided that the constant 1gpm flow from the pump constituted no demand and it stopped heating. So I just leave it in heat pump mode and switch to High Demand if we have guests and it's been working great.

 

[brkaus]

Daikin does hydronic heat pumps, as well. They should work just fine for pools, spas, radiant floors, domestic hot water, etc. Not sure what their supply chain is like right now, but worth looking into.

Thanks. I'll look. I'm concerned about the chlorinated water causing problems and would prefer to avoid a loop with a heat exchanger. But maybe a good way to improve the hot water in the house at the same time. I'll have to see. There are lots of titanium heat exchanges available for pool use and I could run a loop up to a hot water storage tank for domestic hot water... humm...

The other consideration is I might want to use the chilling function in the summer, which makes a pool focused solution more desirable.

 

[Big Earl]

Daikin Altherma has an optional chill function/package.