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Nav 8.0 - UI not made for driving
- Thread starter Boatguy
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- Model S User Interface
This is an interesting assertion. Let's take a look at some numbers. I'm going to make a big assumption that most TMC participants are also posting to the Firmware update site. It looks like that is about 400 people in round numbers. By extension, that means that each TMC participant represents about 300 owners. It could certainly be argued that the 400 on TMC are not a random sample, but I think it's fair to say that a voice on TMC represents something in the range of 50-300 owners. If you're Tesla, you have to make some kind of assumption about the right number, but it's quite likely more than 50.
It's also a well established marketing principle that an unhappy customer shares their unhappiness with many more people than a happy customer. At least 25 people agree with the premise of this thread as indicated by the "like" of the original post. That implies that somewhere between 1,250 and maybe 7,500 owners are unhappy with the v8 UI.
Tesla owners are quite frequently in the company of potential new Tesla owners, that's the whole reason Tesla keeps running their referral promotions. So if 1,250 to 7,500 owners are going to talk to 25,000 - 75,000 people and express how much they like their car, but then express their unhappiness with what Tesla has done with v8 and the owners inability to revert to a prior version, that's not good for Tesla.
So my point is: 1) voices on TMC are a sample of all owners and 2) if Tesla believes in the referral program, then they also have to believe in the negative consequences of unhappy owners.
Feel free to attack the numbers, but I reject the idea that TMC voices are not representative of a substantial number of owners and that their opinions can safely be ignored by Tesla.
I've sat through an awful lot of BOD meetings and never heard anyone say "we've sold all the product we want to sell". Further, it's a common marketing concept that a company's best customers are its current customers, because they are the most likely to purchase again (i.e., lower customer acquisition cost). So it's very difficult for me to understand a company that would think "why make the existing customers happy, it's easier to get new ones than to fix the problems".
Tesla has a monopoly on luxury EVs which will last another 2-3yrs. What they do in the next 2-3 yrs will determine how many current owners jump to buy another MS (it will need a thorough refresh before then), and how many take a good look at whatever BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Audi, Porsche, etc. are offering.
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BertL
Active Member
Another consideration is, we're not talking about cheap consumables here like say a 6-pack of beer or a box of cereal, where if one does not feel they like it, or get the value they are seeking, they can throw it away, buy something else relatively quickly and without too much pain in their bank account. We're instead talking about an automobile which is the 2nd largest purchase for most people, and in this case a $100K asset. For most owners, that purchase will be with them for years, so if a mfgr is not seeking and acting on continual feedback from owners as they tweak the UI in this case, the mfgr won't see some customers leaving or understand their POV, both good and bad.
Along those lines, I have personally seen little evidence Tesla does anything with Owner input that isn't an uproar related to safety, or something that begins to negatively snowball in the press. That's just the way Tesla Mgmt appears to be operating right now. We've all heard about 700-1000 ESP owners, but as I've said before, when we find major things broken or functionally regressed (like parts of Media Player 8.0), either Tesla is not acting on their input, the ESP does not represent a good enough cross-section of owners that touch and use EVERYTHING in the vehicle, or maybe the ESP is no longer as big or complete as perhaps it was at one time. None of us know except by the functions and quality we perceive is being delivered to us.
BTW if people have not watched it, check out the old hour-long YouTube video by one of the contractors originally responsible for the original Tesla UI design back in the day. It's still out there. IMHO there appears to have been a very conscious intent how things were not only presented, but how logically it was used by a driver on the road. The guy was let go after the project... so be that. I do though have to wonder with some of the choices being made since 7 came into being, is there a similar UI leader in place now that advocates and has clout for functionality WITH usability, or has that perhaps been deprioritized and taken a back seat as AP and other pet projects move to the front of the line. Again, I'm appreciative of continual updates with improved functionality, and none of us will know the real answer, but the deliverables I've recently received with perhaps a little less quality from my POV, do make me wonder.
Along those lines, I have personally seen little evidence Tesla does anything with Owner input that isn't an uproar related to safety, or something that begins to negatively snowball in the press. That's just the way Tesla Mgmt appears to be operating right now. We've all heard about 700-1000 ESP owners, but as I've said before, when we find major things broken or functionally regressed (like parts of Media Player 8.0), either Tesla is not acting on their input, the ESP does not represent a good enough cross-section of owners that touch and use EVERYTHING in the vehicle, or maybe the ESP is no longer as big or complete as perhaps it was at one time. None of us know except by the functions and quality we perceive is being delivered to us.
BTW if people have not watched it, check out the old hour-long YouTube video by one of the contractors originally responsible for the original Tesla UI design back in the day. It's still out there. IMHO there appears to have been a very conscious intent how things were not only presented, but how logically it was used by a driver on the road. The guy was let go after the project... so be that. I do though have to wonder with some of the choices being made since 7 came into being, is there a similar UI leader in place now that advocates and has clout for functionality WITH usability, or has that perhaps been deprioritized and taken a back seat as AP and other pet projects move to the front of the line. Again, I'm appreciative of continual updates with improved functionality, and none of us will know the real answer, but the deliverables I've recently received with perhaps a little less quality from my POV, do make me wonder.
Getting back to the early complaints, I, too feel the earlier Tesla software had a very well defined UI model - which was consistent across all of the apps. And while the functionality was limited, it was pretty intuitive to use even while driving.
8.0 breaks that. Activities that were simple before have become more complicated (or even much more difficult to do). Map to music, to podcast, to EV planner are now impossible unless the passenger is Tesla-experienced.
8.0 breaks that. Activities that were simple before have become more complicated (or even much more difficult to do). Map to music, to podcast, to EV planner are now impossible unless the passenger is Tesla-experienced.
aesculus
Still Trying to Figure This All Out
Voting with your wallet is a bad model for a purchase such as a car that has a long ownership period. By the time everyone moves on the problem is moot or resolved. A much faster feedback mechanism is required for longer period purchases like this.
Besides, in this era of instant recognition, data mining, social media and all forms of digital feedback, wallet voting is not even relevant to anything more than an after event feedback on why a company failed. It has little to no value as a near term correction mechanism.
I said that YMMV - I have used AP most of the time with ALL versions of software. That's because I like to minimise risk where I can. My hobby is racing sports cars, and it's taught me that any distraction from the road should be avoided - the large screen is wonderful and cannot be used with any release without looking at it.
Isn't that why we have the heads up display and the steering wheel controls? We can use those without more than a slight glance. Hands can stay on the wheel.
Do I, however, think v8 is perfect? No! Improving the interface will be a long journey. Look at mobile phone OSs as an example: simpler devices, still not perfect.
I think Tesla does listen; they also have very limited resources and prioritise fiercely. Elon possibly makes too much detailed input sporadically too!
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I agree with the basic premise that the UI should be designed to work for people who are driving the Model S and that Tesla's design has strayed from that. What do drivers need? First of all, they need to be able to see important information at a glance. One of the things that the 8.0 upgrade missed is that the navigation map on the left of the driver display obscures the battery meter when the screen drops down to show a turn. Is this the end of the world? No, but it is indicative of a lack of attention to detail. Meanwhile, the designers spend time changing things to make the screen "look" cool, without considering functionality. Obscuring the app icons looks cool. But needing to tap the screen before accessing an app adds an unnecessary distraction--especially when the screen lags and then you double tap, obscuring the icons again. The lag/double tap problem is infuriating when changing channels on my cable remote at home. It is infuriating and dangerous when it happens in my car.
And, what's with the war on the date? My UI used to helpfully tell me the day, date and time right on the driver screen. Then, they took away the day because, I guess when you're a billionaire every day is Saturday. Ok, at least I could see the date in the calendar icon. But, now they've taken that away too! And to trade those conveniences in for the pointless analog clock, which also doesn't tell me the basic information of what day it is? This is the apex of bad design.
How about favorites lists that can't be sorted, and don't sort alphabetically or by distancce but by the random order in which the entries were made.
How about moving the navigation buttons to the left of the nav screen, where they can be accessed easily?
All these things are basic, simple design features that I was hoping would be fixed in 8.0. But, sadly, it was a big whiff.
And, what's with the war on the date? My UI used to helpfully tell me the day, date and time right on the driver screen. Then, they took away the day because, I guess when you're a billionaire every day is Saturday. Ok, at least I could see the date in the calendar icon. But, now they've taken that away too! And to trade those conveniences in for the pointless analog clock, which also doesn't tell me the basic information of what day it is? This is the apex of bad design.
How about favorites lists that can't be sorted, and don't sort alphabetically or by distancce but by the random order in which the entries were made.
How about moving the navigation buttons to the left of the nav screen, where they can be accessed easily?
All these things are basic, simple design features that I was hoping would be fixed in 8.0. But, sadly, it was a big whiff.
Complaints ALWAYS outnumber compliments. Especially about changes. All we should conclude from this is that they changed things.
Any evidence that they only came here to complain about v8.0? The Tesla community is expanding. How many have you actually counted that came here specifically to complain about v8.0?
Thank you kindly.
Actually this problem started with 7.0, when the battery meter was first moved from the center to the lower left corner. Many of us complained about it then but it's still there in 8.0.
I have been and continue to be a strong supporter for Tesla, with one of the early VIN (3xxx) P85s.
And, since receiving my P85 in early 2013, I've provided feedback to Tesla through the forums, via e-mail, over the phone and using the on board Bug Report system.
My comments are not complaints - but an expression of concern that unless Tesla addresses the flaws in their software development, testing and release process, improve the functionality (really, we still don't have playlists or waypoints?), and address the usability issues (i.e., a user interface that is intuitive and optimized for use by a driver, who should be focusing more on the road than on the UI), Tesla risks having these issues impact their sales, especially when other manufacturers start bringing competitive long range EVs to the market (like the Chevy Bolt).
I continue to provide comments on my concerns - hoping that other owners will chime in - and Tesla will take those comments into consideration as they move forward - and hopefully address those concerns, in time.
As of today, we are planning to buy a 100D/AP 2.0 Model S as soon as that combination is announced, plus we have a Model 3 on order.
But...
We'll also take a very close look at the Chevy Bolt as an alternative to purchasing a Model 3. We plan to use our Model 3 as a local commuter car - and our Model S as our long distance road car. So features like the supercharger network and AP may not be as important in our purchase decision for the Model 3 - and if the Bolt's onboard software is much better than Tesla's, it may be tempting to cancel our order for the Model 3 and buy the Bolt instead.
And, since receiving my P85 in early 2013, I've provided feedback to Tesla through the forums, via e-mail, over the phone and using the on board Bug Report system.
My comments are not complaints - but an expression of concern that unless Tesla addresses the flaws in their software development, testing and release process, improve the functionality (really, we still don't have playlists or waypoints?), and address the usability issues (i.e., a user interface that is intuitive and optimized for use by a driver, who should be focusing more on the road than on the UI), Tesla risks having these issues impact their sales, especially when other manufacturers start bringing competitive long range EVs to the market (like the Chevy Bolt).
I continue to provide comments on my concerns - hoping that other owners will chime in - and Tesla will take those comments into consideration as they move forward - and hopefully address those concerns, in time.
As of today, we are planning to buy a 100D/AP 2.0 Model S as soon as that combination is announced, plus we have a Model 3 on order.
But...
We'll also take a very close look at the Chevy Bolt as an alternative to purchasing a Model 3. We plan to use our Model 3 as a local commuter car - and our Model S as our long distance road car. So features like the supercharger network and AP may not be as important in our purchase decision for the Model 3 - and if the Bolt's onboard software is much better than Tesla's, it may be tempting to cancel our order for the Model 3 and buy the Bolt instead.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
So I was playing with 8.0 a bit today, and we realized something so shockingly simple...why didn't Tesla think of this?
So when in "Drive" the nav map auto-hides the icons, and a tap un-hides them for about 10-15 seconds, and then auto-hides them again.
But as soon as you put the car into "Park" the icons un-hide themselves. But while in "Park" you can tap the screen to manually hide and unhide the icons, but they *don't* auto-hide again. They just stay in whatever state you last set them.
Why can't it work this way in "Drive"? If you want the icons, tap the screen once and they appear and stay that way. But just tap again, and the disappear -- until you tap again.
It seems like that would be the best of both worlds. Let people hide the icons when they want, or always show them. None of this "auto-hiding" crap.
So when in "Drive" the nav map auto-hides the icons, and a tap un-hides them for about 10-15 seconds, and then auto-hides them again.
But as soon as you put the car into "Park" the icons un-hide themselves. But while in "Park" you can tap the screen to manually hide and unhide the icons, but they *don't* auto-hide again. They just stay in whatever state you last set them.
Why can't it work this way in "Drive"? If you want the icons, tap the screen once and they appear and stay that way. But just tap again, and the disappear -- until you tap again.
It seems like that would be the best of both worlds. Let people hide the icons when they want, or always show them. None of this "auto-hiding" crap.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
Yes, I agree a switchable preference is best, but I can also see Tesla not wanting to clutter up the "Setting" UI with dozens of On/Off options. I can think of about a dozen right off the bat I'd like to have right now, so if they start down that road, it's a "slippery slope" for sure.
So why not make it an implied option switch like I described? You could even have a three state tap:
Default state: Icons always visible
Tap once: Icons auto-hide/unhide
Tap again: Icons don't hide
Quick Double tap: Save preference
Yeah, yeah, I know, that gets messy with double taps... it was just an example to save the preference without adding an On/Off switch.
Great suggestion, I was thinking the same thing, that would satisfy everyone for sure. However, I think the whole purpose of the auto-hiding toolbar is not just aesthetics but for performance reasons. Working on this older chipset means they have to be creative in the way they utilize the processor to maximize on efficiency. Translation: hide the icons and other elements to make the map operate more smoothly, also refresh the map more frequently to free up usage of the CPU.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
Seriously? You think auto-hiding the icons takes LESS resources? And updating the map more frequently takes less CPU?
If anything, it's the other way around. If you watch that auto-hide, there's A LOT of dynamic stuff going on graphics wise. I'm sure that consumes A LOT of more CPU.
If anything, it's the other way around. If you watch that auto-hide, there's A LOT of dynamic stuff going on graphics wise. I'm sure that consumes A LOT of more CPU.
I didnt say the auto-hiding animation takes less resources, I said having the icons not on the screen while the map is doing its thing may take less resources. I mainly say that for 2 reasons:
1) I dont think they would deliberately add something that puts an additional step in for drivers without a good reason.
2) The leaked images of the beta v8.0 shows grey/non-colored icons at the top which most thought was for Valet mode, but seeing the actual release in Valet mode that is not the case so I am assuming they were testing different ways to optimize performance by having grey icons devoid of color, and then decided to go with auto-hiding instead or even both in the beta.
"Tesla risks having these issues impact their sales, especially when other manufacturers start bringing competitive long range EVs to the market (like the Chevy Bolt). I continue to provide comments on my concerns - hoping that other owners will chime in - and Tesla will take those comments into consideration as they move forward - and hopefully address those concerns, in time."
Bob_p is right. These issues are not as trivial as it seems. Tesla is amazing. But it needs to stay amazing to stay ahead of the competition. Major UI upgrades that tinker with look and feel but don't actually improve the UI, and don't fix basic flaws with the old version, are a disappointment. As a Tesla fan, I'm disappointed.
I love my Model S. It is the greatest car ever made. I will be getting a 90D soon because my lease is running out on my 85.
But, the issue with the UI is like the refusal to address the rear seat cup holders. There seems to be a level of anti-consumerism in the Tesla design process, like we should value a mildly cool-looking analog clock over a simple digital clock that tells us the information we actually want. There is a great deal of this type of thing that Tesla can get away with while it is a young company and loyal fans like me will happily drive the car no matter what. But there are many, many more people who are not like me and who will not consider a Model S because it doesn't have all the conveniences of an E Class.
And, my bigger problem aside from the design aesthetic is that a UI that makes me hunt and peck for basic information puts me and other people at risk. For a safety-minded company, I would think the design imperative would be delivering all the information a driver wantS, handsfree. Another poster on this forum noted that He could zoom in/out on the nav map by speaking to his 2004 Toyota. This kind of utility is what folks like me are complaining about because it seems lacking. But, rather than focus on safety and utility, Tesla seems to want to hide information because it looks cool. Another example of this is the 3G strength indication, which used to be at the top of the screen and now is obscured. But, in another interesting design choice, they left the T logo. That means somebody actually decided The logo is more valuable to a driver than the 3G indicator. I like the T logo. I'm happy it is there. But, not at the expense of information I need. Can you imagine what people would do if Apple decided to hide the signal strength indicator on the iPhone? Riots in the streets!
And, while I'm at it, how about adding an indicator that says what level my suspension is on? How about letting me know whether the rear seat heaters are on? How about letting me know whether the sun roof is open when I park? It's not like there isn't enough room on the screen! I hope Tesla elevates utility and safety over aesthetic in the next upgrade. Let's spend less time coming up with new icons and more time trying to improve the driver experience.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
Very well said Achilz!
There's another factor pushing the design.. it's the "these users are stupid, so let's hide everything except the absolute minimum required". It happens in most software development cycles where the wrong people are in charge of UI/UX design. They always think they know what the user wants and needs, and we end up with software exactly as you describe. "If we make it look really cool, people will think we're awesome!!"
No, that's not how you develop UIs.
There's another factor pushing the design.. it's the "these users are stupid, so let's hide everything except the absolute minimum required". It happens in most software development cycles where the wrong people are in charge of UI/UX design. They always think they know what the user wants and needs, and we end up with software exactly as you describe. "If we make it look really cool, people will think we're awesome!!"
No, that's not how you develop UIs.
When 7.0 was released, and there was pushback on the UI changes in that release, Tesla (Musk) promised user interface customization was coming (in 7.1).
Instead, we have even more non-customizable UI changes.
Not only do we need the UI to be cleaned up - with a consistent interface and optimized for use by someone who is driving at the same time - we also need the ability to better customize what and how the information is displayed.
With smart phones, how many people use the "stock" user interface? When we get new generation phones, we typically spend the first few days customizing it to match how we want to use our phones - changing what is being displayed - and how.
We should have more flexibility to do the same with the Tesla onboard software.
Personally, the 17" display is poorly utilized because it consumes too much screen space to display so little information. While the Google satellite maps look beautiful, when driving, most of the map area doesn't provide any value - and the map could be reduced in size, and still be useful.
The status bar and icon bar at the top provide a lot of information and quick shortcuts - and are useful to display. The controls for settings, HVAC and volume at the bottom are fairly efficient use of space (though why can't you turn off the radio by pressing the speaker icon???).
A similar size bar could be just as useful for the "now playing" display for the media player - and not waste 1/2 of the display to show a few giant buttons for music navigation, album art and text of what's playing.
The energy graph is useful - but doesn't need 1/2 of the display.
Look at the Bolt web page - and they've split their smaller screen into sections, so they can display more information - with a 17" display, it should be possible to display smaller windows - and provide quick access to almost everything the driver wants to use while the car is in motion - and eliminate all of the extra button presses.
But not everyone would like that - hence the need for UI customization - allowing drivers the ability to customize the display to fit their preferences - and not force a "one size fits all" interface onto everyone.
This isn't "rocket science" - UI design is a well understood and mature discipline. There really isn't any excuse for this. Admittedly, retrofitting good UI design on poorly designed UI code will end up costing much more than implementing it right in the first place. But customers really aren't going to care about how hard it is for Tesla to make this happen - when people make a purchasing decision - they want something that works.
Instead, we have even more non-customizable UI changes.
Not only do we need the UI to be cleaned up - with a consistent interface and optimized for use by someone who is driving at the same time - we also need the ability to better customize what and how the information is displayed.
With smart phones, how many people use the "stock" user interface? When we get new generation phones, we typically spend the first few days customizing it to match how we want to use our phones - changing what is being displayed - and how.
We should have more flexibility to do the same with the Tesla onboard software.
Personally, the 17" display is poorly utilized because it consumes too much screen space to display so little information. While the Google satellite maps look beautiful, when driving, most of the map area doesn't provide any value - and the map could be reduced in size, and still be useful.
The status bar and icon bar at the top provide a lot of information and quick shortcuts - and are useful to display. The controls for settings, HVAC and volume at the bottom are fairly efficient use of space (though why can't you turn off the radio by pressing the speaker icon???).
A similar size bar could be just as useful for the "now playing" display for the media player - and not waste 1/2 of the display to show a few giant buttons for music navigation, album art and text of what's playing.
The energy graph is useful - but doesn't need 1/2 of the display.
Look at the Bolt web page - and they've split their smaller screen into sections, so they can display more information - with a 17" display, it should be possible to display smaller windows - and provide quick access to almost everything the driver wants to use while the car is in motion - and eliminate all of the extra button presses.
But not everyone would like that - hence the need for UI customization - allowing drivers the ability to customize the display to fit their preferences - and not force a "one size fits all" interface onto everyone.
This isn't "rocket science" - UI design is a well understood and mature discipline. There really isn't any excuse for this. Admittedly, retrofitting good UI design on poorly designed UI code will end up costing much more than implementing it right in the first place. But customers really aren't going to care about how hard it is for Tesla to make this happen - when people make a purchasing decision - they want something that works.
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