Nav on AP with Auto-Lane Change unusable in current state

[vikefan]

I’ve been trying to use (I.e. test a feature for Tesla for free) both Nav on AP and auto lane change since it was first released, and I find myself wanting to keep it permanently turned off at this point.

The auto lane changes are seemingly random and generally unhelpful. All of the things listed below happen to me frequently, not just one or two times. *Frequently*. Pretty much every single time I use the feature.

* I’ve experienced the car change lanes once, only to change back to the previous lane again (for seemingly no particular reason for either lane change).

* I’ve also seen it change me out of the #1 lane by saying “change lanes to exit passing lane” even though I’m going 80 mph with no one behind me and 10+ miles away from my next exit.

* the car will begin changing lanes only to suddenly swerve back into the original lane despite no obstacles in its way.

* Even without auto lane change enabled, Nav on AP will repeatedly suggest I move over to the far right lane for my next exit, even though the exit is still several miles away. I’ve even seen it do this when the exit is up to 18 miles away.

* Even after dismissing suggested (and errant) lane changes, the car will pop up the suggestion again almost immediately and repeatedly. There’s no way to stop it from spamming me other than turning the feature off.

* In moderate-heavy traffic, auto lane changes are totally unusable because it is nowhere near aggressive enough to ever change lanes. It will forever wait for an amount of space that will never exist before it’ll want to change lanes.

* Even when set to “mad max”, the car will change lanes into a lane with a slow moving vehicle ahead, only to almost immediately move me out of the lane again. Often this lane change wasn’t even originally necessary, as no vehicles were ahead of me in the first place, and just as often, it will move me back back from the 2nd lane into my original lane rather than into a 3rd lane, which begs the question...why move out in the first place if it felt the lane was suitable to move into?


All of this adds up to me having to *constantly* manage my lane changes and Nav settings, even more so than if I was just driving a regular car on my own. It also makes me look like a bizarre / incompetent driver on the road to others who see me constantly changing lanes, or moving back and forth between the same two lanes, or moving into a lane with a clearly slow driver coming up, for apparently no reason.

This system needs a LOT of work, and that’s more than a bit frustrating for suckers like me who paid upfront for FSD, because of all of the complications that need to be overcome for FSD, I feel like Nav on AP/auto lane change should be two of the least complicated...

 

[commasign]

Yeah, I've noticed all of these quirks you listed. But I have to say it seems to be getting better with each update.

 

[Enginerd]

All these characteristics are present, yes. And perhaps they're more evident in SoCal with greater traffic density and wider freeways. I'm tracking statistics on auto lane change performance in another thread:
Navigate On Autopilot: automatic lane change results
My intent is to let the data have a voice among all these valid anecdotes.

I’ve experienced the car change lanes once, only to change back to the previous lane again (for seemingly no particular reason for either lane change).

One thing I've found is that NOA will move you out of the slow lane when crossing a state highway, for example. Although it seems unnecessary, it probably occasionally saves some interactions with slower traffic.

I’ve also seen it change me out of the #1 lane by saying “change lanes to exit passing lane” even though I’m going 80 mph with no one behind me and 10+ miles away from my next exit.

It's rules-based, so that's to be expected. And... that's why they call it a passing lane.

Even after dismissing suggested (and errant) lane changes, the car will pop up the suggestion again almost immediately and repeatedly.

I hear you on this, and sometimes feel the same. But I actually kind of like that it doesn't lose confidence and feel defeated. When I decline a lane change because NOA wasn't acting so bright, I want it to try again when conditions are better.

 

[Lunares]

You may find it better if you turn mad max down actually. The point of mad max is that it is going to increase the frequency of lane changes. A lot. That is it tries to be super aggressive about when to lane change, not the lane change itself which is super slow

Try using it on mild or average and see if it's less erratic. The tradeoff of course is you might have to wait longer behind a slow car. You can always override it by just putting the signal on and it will lane change anyway.

 

[hcdavis3]

12.1.2 seems to have broken NOA. I used to get the blue Navigate on Autopilot button but not anymore. I tried using the turn signal to see if it would do lane change and it says not available. Am I doing something wrong?

 

[StellarRat]

It's definitely flaky. I've had it successfully pass people, but it seems to be very "unsure" of itself, attempts then quits then tries again...I think the human drivers behind me must think I'm crazy or drunk. It seems to have serious problems figuring out whether or not the next lane is open. EAP alone is fine, but the NOA is just not working right. I'm a little confused about how Tesla is testing this stuff. It only took me one short drive to find this problem. Surely, even the most minimal of testing should be letting Tesla know that these features really aren't usable, so why release them with big bugs? I used to be a software engineer and my opinion is it's unprofessional UNLESS you also specify that there are known problems with the release.

 

[Lunares]

It's definitely flaky. I've had it successfully pass people, but it seems to be very "unsure" of itself, attempts then quits then tries again...I think the human drivers behind me must think I'm crazy or drunk. It seems to have serious problems figuring out whether or not the next lane is open. EAP alone is fine, but the NOA is just not working right. I'm a little confused about how Tesla is testing this stuff. It only took me one short drive to find this problem. Surely, even the most minimal of testing should be letting Tesla know that these features really aren't usable, so why release them with big bugs? I used to be a software engineer and my opinion is it's unprofessional UNLESS you also specify that there are known problems with the release.

I don't think I have ever had NOA abort a lane change unless there was actually a car which came into the lane. Could just be the lane markers on the roads you drive on are poor and give the car low confidence

 

[StellarRat]

I don't think I have ever had NOA abort a lane change unless there was actually a car which came into the lane. Could just be the lane markers on the roads you drive on are poor and give the car low confidence

I was on a well marked freeway (I-5) and the nearest car in the new lane was well behind me. It seems to want huge amount of space to merge into. Also, this was after it had passed someone and was trying to move back to the original lane on it's own. What it did not try was initiating the change myself with the stalk. After it's aborted lane change the guy in the lane dropped way back. I'm pretty sure he thought I was nuts.

 

[Lunares]

I was on a well marked freeway (I-5) and the nearest car in the new lane was well behind me. It seems to want huge amount of space to merge into. Also, this was after it had passed someone and was trying to move back to the original lane on it's own. What it did not try was initiating myself with the stalk. After it's aborted lane change the guy in lane dropped way back. I'm pretty sure he thought I was nuts.

Yea it does want a huge amount of space. What I do if I recognize that happening (based on a red line appearing on the screen in my lane) is press the accelerator a bit to force it to gain some margin.

 

[Triplett]

Ya...considering how much better all the other car companies are doing with navigate on autopilot, Tesla really sucks.

 

[hcdavis3]

Ya...considering how much better all the other car companies are doing with navigate on autopilot, Tesla really sucks.

Huh??

 

[hcdavis3]

I did a shutdown in software and NOA reappeared. The blue Navigate on autopilot button is back and I’ll test it a little later. Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

 

[Triplett]

Here's the difference:

When I'm driving, I'm driving like Tron.

When I get into an uber, he or she is driving like a 90 year old woman with a vision problem.

I used to get all anxious and wonder why this guy or girl isn't driving faster, or not making moves that I would make to pass 3 cars and take the lead. Sometimes I'd even get to the point of backseat driving.

Then, one day, somehow, I learned to relax, sit back and enjoy being chauffeured around crappy LA traffic, despite the slower pace.

I think of autopilot the same way.

Sometime you have to just sit back, relax and let your computerized Alfred drive your Bruce Wayne a** around, even if he is slightly drunk and you have to grab the wheel every so often.

 

[Triplett]

Huh??

It's really not that hard to figure out that joke.

 

[hcdavis3]

It's really not that hard to figure out that joke.

No it’s not. Some people found your post funny. Maybe my sarcasm detector needs a reboot.

 

[Rockster]

I'm seeing many of the same behaviors that OP describes. NoA seems to have periods where it works great and then periods where it seems to have lost its mind somewhat. I have faith, though, that the technology will not only continue to improve but the rate of improvement will accelerate. I look at it like I'm training a new driver that one day will surpass me in safety and reliability. As momentarily frustrating as it might be, I'm happy to be part of this technology's birth.

 

[OCR1]

NoA is barely useable for me in Southern California congested traffic. Even using AP is hit or miss as I get constant phantom braking when there is absolutely nothing in front of me. Or I’m in a lane moving quickly while the lanes to the right and left are jammed up and the car just keeps cruising as fast as possible, and then I see someone put a turn signal on and then cut over into my lane at the last second and the car brakes hard because it doesn’t know how to read turn signals from other cars and anticipate a car moving into my lane.

I think both AP and FSD need a lot of work. Maybe HW3 will help eventually. It’s clearly not there yet for me.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

* I’ve experienced the car change lanes once, only to change back to the previous lane again (for seemingly no particular reason for either lane change).

I've noticed this as well in my experience.

* I’ve also seen it change me out of the #1 lane by saying “change lanes to exit passing lane” even though I’m going 80 mph with no one behind me and 10+ miles away from my next exit.

I've experienced this, and I believe its intention. You're not supposed to just hang out in the passing lane.

* the car will begin changing lanes only to suddenly swerve back into the original lane despite no obstacles in its way.

I haven't experienced this to the point of a swerve, but I've certainly had it cancel a lane change for no particularly good reason. I think it's detecting a ghost vehicle.

* Even without auto lane change enabled, Nav on AP will repeatedly suggest I move over to the far right lane for my next exit, even though the exit is still several miles away. I’ve even seen it do this when the exit is up to 18 miles away.

I've seen this odd behavior and attributed it to bad mapping info, but you're in Cali so I would expect that you'd have better maps.

* Even after dismissing suggested (and errant) lane changes, the car will pop up the suggestion again almost immediately and repeatedly. There’s no way to stop it from spamming me other than turning the feature off.

Absolutely the worst part on NoA in my opinion. I usually know where it will do this so I simply turn off NoA in those area.

* In moderate-heavy traffic, auto lane changes are totally unusable because it is nowhere near aggressive enough to ever change lanes. It will forever wait for an amount of space that will never exist before it’ll want to change lanes.

Agreed

All of this adds up to me having to *constantly* manage my lane changes and Nav settings, even more so than if I was just driving a regular car on my own. It also makes me look like a bizarre / incompetent driver on the road to others who see me constantly changing lanes, or moving back and forth between the same two lanes, or moving into a lane with a clearly slow driver coming up, for apparently no reason.

I agree that it needs a LOT of work especially in busy areas, and a lot better logic as to when to change lanes. It also needs to have much better mapping so it doesn't try to get over 18 miles before an exit.

But, I found that it worked REALLY well in outside of any major city. Where it was able to properly detect better than I can if someone was traveling 5 mph below my set point, and would get over. Then get back over so it wasn't in the passing lane.

As soon as it ever gets close to a major city it just starts to suck. So I don't bother using it unless I'm on a freeway that I know it has good map info for, and when conditions are pretty light.

For those in the PNW

The areas where it works are: North of Everett, and South of Tacoma.
The areas that need a lot of work: Anywhere near Seattle, Tacoma, or Bellevue.

 

[OCR1]

But, I found that it worked REALLY well in outside of any major city. Where it was able to properly detect better than I can if someone was traveling 5 mph below my set point, and would get over. Then get back over so it wasn't in the passing lane.

As soon as it ever gets close to a major city it just starts to suck. So I don't bother using it unless I'm on a freeway that I know it has good map info for, and when conditions are pretty light.

That has been my conclusion so far as well. But since I live in Southern California that pretty much incorporates virtually all of my driving. If I occasionally take a nice leisurely drive out to Palm Springs or Las Vegas it all works just fine. But that represents less than 1% of my total driving.

Which leads to the question, how much is AP/FSD worth to someone like me? I’d say at most $2K for everything. Asking me to pay $9,500 for AP/FSD after delivery, or even $9K at delivery, is simply ridiculous. That’s why I didn’t bother purchasing either on our second M3. And if I could get a refund on EAP/FSD on our first M3 I’d gladly take it.

 

[vikefan]

It's rules-based, so that's to be expected. And... that's why they call it a passing lane

I’m not sure if maybe it’s different where you live, but at least in SoCal, the #1 lane isn’t just a “passing lane only”. There’s no reason at all why the car should be moving me out of the lane if no one else is in it, either in front of me or behind me, there’s a bunch of open road ahead, and there’s no need to change lanes for dozens of miles. The #1 lane isn’t JUST a “passing lane” here; it’s just another lane like any other.