Navigate on Autopilot is not for me

[Boomer543]

After getting the new 28.3 update in my M3 LR AWD and seeing the positive posts on here about the perceived improvements in NOA, I decided to try it on my way home from work today. Based on my experience, I'm not going to be using it again any time soon and if NOA is supposed to be the avant garde of FSD, I'm not convinced we're going to see true FSD for a long, long time.

IMO, there are four major deal-breakers for me:

-- As I believe I've posted before, when NOA guides the car through an exit, it jerks the car to the far right side of the exit ramp, so close to the guardrail that the distance sensors in the visualization screen turn red. Way too close to trust, even when I'm ready for it.

-- NOA does a terrible job with merging traffic. I had to intervene to keep my car from running into the side of a car merging from the right. It's as if NOA has no peripheral vision. I can see what's about to happen but the car is clueless.

-- In my experience, the car randomly changes lanes for no apparent reason and then moves back into the original lane shortly afterward (10 seconds or less). It also seems to pick a lane where traffic is about to slow down. It doesn't seem like it can see far enough down the road to realize changing lanes is a bad idea.

-- Whenever it decides it needs to move over for an exit (usually right around 1 mile from the exit), it will immediately slow down to move behind the car in that lane, even if the road is clear ahead of that car. The slowing can be significant and potentially dangerous if there are cars behind me. It would be much smoother and safer to accelerate ahead of that car and my car still has plenty of time to pass and move into the exit lane. I can accelerate and make the car wait to change lanes until I've passed the slower car, but this seems like a simple thing that the car should be able to figure out on its own.

Based on my experiences to date, I have serious doubts that V.10 is going to fix all of these issues. Until NOA works smoothly and safely, I'm not going to be using it again. Frankly, using the turn signals while on autopilot to make the car change lanes works a whole lot better at this point.

 

[NoMoGas]

Based on my experiences to date, I have serious doubts that V.10 is going to fix all of these issues. Until NOA works smoothly and safely, I'm not going to be using it again. Frankly, using the turn signals while on autopilot to make the car change lanes works a whole lot better at this point.

Based on my experience with Windows 98 I can't imagine XP would be any improvement.

 

[sduck]

Ok.

 

[DanCar]

Video, or it didn't happen.

 

[Aellinsar]

I haven't seen the car randomly changing lanes, but I've definitely seen NoA do the other 3 you mention. I agree that FSD seems quite a ways off.

 

[Lunares]

I haven't seen the car randomly changing lanes, but I've definitely seen NoA do the other 3 you mention. I agree that FSD seems quite a ways off.

Eh, NoA has been doing those things for almost a year now. It's pretty obvious the autopilot team has two branches running, one for actual FSD under HW3 and one that runs NoA on HW2.5. The HW2.5 computer just doesnt have the processor power to run a neural net that can handle those situations

Once we actually get some real HW3 demos (the one they showed at investor day, not the one they deploy now) I will judge pace to FSD. The fact that the car can see and know what's around it is amazing, it's the interpretation and forecasting I want to see improved

 

[Saghost]

You told the car the maximum speed it was permitted to go, but now you want it to accelerate past that speed to merge?

Did the car actually start moving into the collision before you intervened?

It's unnerving, but normal for the car to sit there signaling while flashing red cars in the instrument cluster and waiting for the blind spot to clear, butt I haven't seen the car actually attempt to make a dangerous lane change.

Without a doubt, the exit ramps and lane logic need improvement; I only saw the back and forth between lanes once, but that was really annoying and most exit ramps are sharp experiences (but better than the last time I tried it...)

 

[Boomer543]

You told the car the maximum speed it was permitted to go, but now you want it to accelerate past that speed to merge?

Did the car actually start moving into the collision before you intervened?

It's unnerving, but normal for the car to sit there signaling while flashing red cars in the instrument cluster and waiting for the blind spot to clear, butt I haven't seen the car actually attempt to make a dangerous lane change.

Without a doubt, the exit ramps and lane logic need improvement; I only saw the back and forth between lanes once, but that was really annoying and most exit ramps are sharp experiences (but better than the last time I tried it...)

It isn't necessarily going at the highest speed I set. In most cases, due to traffic, the car never hits the max. And what I want it to do is to wait to pass the slow car before moving over. I correct the problem when it happens by accelerating when I see the car is about to slow down to move over and let it re-execute the lane change after I've passed the slower car. What I find dangerous is my car slowing down precipitously in my lane and then moving over.

Yes. The car would have clearly hit the car merging from the right if I did not intervene.

 

[M3BlueGeorgia]

I haven't seen the car randomly changing lanes, but I've definitely seen NoA do the other 3 you mention. I agree that FSD seems quite a ways off.

NoA is very useful on long roads trips. I use it 90% of the time for freeway driving.

However: IF YOU HAVE THE AUTOMATIC LANE CHANGE ACTIVATED, DEACTIVATE IMMEDIATELY. That particular option should never have been released by Tesla.
Fortunately, its just an option.

 

[SigNC]

NoA is very useful on long roads trips. I use it 90% of the time for freeway driving.

However: IF YOU HAVE THE AUTOMATIC LANE CHANGE ACTIVATED, DEACTIVATE IMMEDIATELY. That particular option should never have been released by Tesla.
Fortunately, its just an option.

So basically you are just using AP.

 

[derotam]

NoA is very useful on long roads trips. I use it 90% of the time for freeway driving.

However: IF YOU HAVE THE AUTOMATIC LANE CHANGE ACTIVATED, DEACTIVATE IMMEDIATELY. That particular option should never have been released by Tesla.
Fortunately, its just an option.

Care to explain why we should not use automatic lane change? Without that you are just using AP. On long road trips with lower traffic volumes automatic lane change can be nice to have.

 

[RyanT]

That's not true, when you turn off the automatic lane changes NoA still takes the exits (provided you're in the right lane) and suggests lane changes.

It's very useful since the car will monitor when you need to take the exit (you don't have to watch for the exit yourself) and it will suggest which lane to be in when you're coming up to interstate splits etc.

I like using the automatic lane changes in wide open sections like Derotam suggests.

 

[totteraptor]

I have had my M3 since June 2019 and have to say I am disappointed with the driving dynamics of the car - even just the cruise control to stay behind the car in front is more jittery and nervous than my old Mercedes. Elons talk about autonomous cars and taxi services in 2020 led me to think the cars were far more advanced than they really are - I have lost my confidence.

 

[Paddy3101]

I find NOA quite useful, I don't always understand immediately why it's done something, it's not always obvious, and it doesn't drive how I would drive. But then I can say the exact same thing about my wife driving.

I do switch between NOA and Regular autopilot, some times I just want the car to stay in lane and follow along. So turn it off, then a bit later turn it back on and let it do it's thing.

Yes I have notices it also does change lanes, and then change it's mind and change back again. It doesn't do this repeatedly, but it's quite consistent on one section of road, particularly on a sectioned off express lane. Impression I get on this is that it's looking to see how many lanes there are, and which lane it's in. i.e. It knows it should be in the express lane, but without seeing which lane it's in, how does it know?

I have found that it takes a while to build up confidence in what NOA is going to do. Just like being a passenger in a car with a driver you don't know/trust. It takes more than a single drive to be comfortable with it.

Also, learn to direct it. If you want it to speed up to complete a lane change, just manually accelerate to pass. If you don't want it to change lanes right now, click the button which says to cancel the maneuver, or toggle out into standard AP. If you want to be in a particular lane, signal, and let the car get you there.

If you want to 'confirm' the lane changes yourself, then that's an option. The car asks to change lanes, and you confirm before it does it. I tend to not do that, as that confirmation quite often takes too long, and the gap isn't there any more.

My approach is that 'I'm Still Driving The Car' i'm not handing over responsibility, or control. Just that I'm using different, higher level, controls to get where I want to go.

It's just the next evolutionary level of the machine providing more convenience features. (i.e. I don't need to pump the fuel manually, advance retard the ignition timing, control the fuel mixture/choke. Clutch, Power Steering, Brakes. Cruise Control, ABS, Traction Control, Hill Start, Emergency Braking Assistance) Same comments were made about all of those in the past.

 

[Big Dog]

I don't use NOA either. My big problem is the constant nag to change lanes, usually left. I click no/skip and 10 seconds later it comes back and suggests a lane change again. This is when I'm already doing 70 mph and traffic around me is flowing fine. Moreover, I know that I'll be exiting within the next mile so why move left and left again, only to right-right.

OTOH, big fan of EAP on long trips. I just take over on my exits, transitions.

 

[CameronB]

I am a heavy AP and NoA user. But I too have seen (and have been annoyed by) some variations of what the OP noted:

"Random" lane changes: sometimes happens. Much less since I switched off "Mad Max" mode. But occasionally still wants to move into another lane and then will want to move back shortly after changing lanes.

For me auto merging is a mixed bag. Maybe 60% of the time it is smooth and seems "magical". Other times (25%?) it is a bit clunky and I have to "help it out" with the accelerator a tad but it works. The other 15% is when, like the OP said, it never wants to overtake a vehicle in the adjacent lane that is roughly parallel to me - and then change lanes much easier because where there is a big (10-20 car length) gap ahead. I think many times a human (or at least this human!) would chose to accelerate a little faster than the adjacent car and then change lanes. But AP always wants to get behind the adjacent car, even if it means rapidly decelerating and causing issues for the people behind you. Wish it would not do that!

The other point the OP brings up with the car not seeming to "look ahead" far enough to see what that, for example, it is better to stay in the current lane because maybe the other lane is starting to slow 1 mile ahead while you could see that your current lane, while maybe right this second is a little slower than the adjacent lane, overall will be less impacted in another 30 seconds from now. The car doesn't seem to be seeing the bigger picture - even though between radar and all of it's cameras it should be able to see these evolving situations better than us meatbags.

All of that said, I use AP and NoA for about 90% of my total freeway driving over about 15 miles. And despite the irritations and limitations, I still love it and still find it pretty magical. It's not perfect for SURE. But sometimes I feel like the complaints (mine included!) are a little like the people bitching about airline foibles in LOUIS C.K's "The miracle of flight" skit

 

[daver3]

After getting the new 28.3 update in my M3 LR AWD and seeing the positive posts on here about the perceived improvements in NOA, I decided to try it on my way home from work today. Based on my experience, I'm not going to be using it again any time soon and if NOA is supposed to be the avant garde of FSD, I'm not convinced we're going to see true FSD for a long, long time.

IMO, there are four major deal-breakers for me:

-- As I believe I've posted before, when NOA guides the car through an exit, it jerks the car to the far right side of the exit ramp, so close to the guardrail that the distance sensors in the visualization screen turn red. Way too close to trust, even when I'm ready for it.

-- NOA does a terrible job with merging traffic. I had to intervene to keep my car from running into the side of a car merging from the right. It's as if NOA has no peripheral vision. I can see what's about to happen but the car is clueless.

-- In my experience, the car randomly changes lanes for no apparent reason and then moves back into the original lane shortly afterward (10 seconds or less). It also seems to pick a lane where traffic is about to slow down. It doesn't seem like it can see far enough down the road to realize changing lanes is a bad idea.

-- Whenever it decides it needs to move over for an exit (usually right around 1 mile from the exit), it will immediately slow down to move behind the car in that lane, even if the road is clear ahead of that car. The slowing can be significant and potentially dangerous if there are cars behind me. It would be much smoother and safer to accelerate ahead of that car and my car still has plenty of time to pass and move into the exit lane. I can accelerate and make the car wait to change lanes until I've passed the slower car, but this seems like a simple thing that the car should be able to figure out on its own.

Based on my experiences to date, I have serious doubts that V.10 is going to fix all of these issues. Until NOA works smoothly and safely, I'm not going to be using it again. Frankly, using the turn signals while on autopilot to make the car change lanes works a whole lot better at this point.

 

[daver3]

I agree. Although I haven't tried it a lot I see no real advantage other than it knowing you're going to exit a highway. You still have to make all the decisions once the suggestions are made and I seem to have to worry more about what it might do. However, I think your merging sitiuation is true on AP as well, don't know that NOA is different.

 

[Dana1]

NoA is very useful on long roads trips. I use it 90% of the time for freeway driving.

However: IF YOU HAVE THE AUTOMATIC LANE CHANGE ACTIVATED, DEACTIVATE IMMEDIATELY. That particular option should never have been released by Tesla.
Fortunately, its just an option.

I find auto lane change rather useful.

 

[VoyageWOCarbon]

For me, NOA is extremely useful in light to medium traffic but once I’m in LA or NYC, it gets too dicey. One thing I have to remember is that we all have our own tendencies while driving. Every single person drives differently. Once I learned how autopilot drove, and understood its nuances, I became much more comfortable using it.