I think people like him are nuts. Why would you ever want to drive with both hands resting on your knees? And he’s tugging on the wheel whenever NOA prompts a lane change and then immediately putting his hands back on his knees while AP is making the actual lane change? Crazy and dangerous. This ain’t FSD yet.
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Navigate on Autopilot is Useless (2018.42.3)
- Thread starter wk057
- Start date
Yes you are supposed to have hands on wheel and its actually more hassle to do it with the hands resting on his knees. How could you ever relax with hands off the wheel. I am guilty of the same thing when I first got EAP but I learned quickly that it's not a smart thing to do. Suddenly the wheel jerks because it sees something strange. And that was enough for me to never trust it again.
One can only speculate it's to show off to the camera
scottf200
Well-Known Member
He stated he was doing hands off for the demonstration only and always suggest hands on the wheel.
scottf200
Well-Known Member
That is an excellent example of how AP can pick up things even if a human were to be a 1/2 second early or late for another erratic driver in their glance in the side mirrors.
Here is another great one from today:
2019.8.4 Crash Avoided on NoA
To set the stage:
My family and I were traveling from North of Houston to South of Houston 102 one way trip busy highway miles. I was traveling south on I610 loop which is very heavy with traffic. NoA had me in the fast lane passing slower traffic.
Incident:
NoA suggested lane change out of the fast lane. I checked my side mirror and acknowledged the change. Suddenly, in the middle of the change my X vigorously maneuvered back to the left aborting the lane change. With my shock I looked to the right and seen a woman's face 6 inches from my wife's passenger window as she when flying by.
After analysis:
My wife happened to glance just before the incident and said the other vehicle was 3 lanes over traveling 20 to 30 miles per hour faster than us and other traffic around us, cut over three lanes as she was overtaking us, and cut into our lane. If my X would not have maneuvered quickly, the other vehicle would have side swiped my X. I did not look over until after the X maneuvered a few feet to the left while it aborted. The other car was at that time within inches of my side panels. Of course the other driver gave me the dirty look as she went flying by.
In addition on that trip the X did some rather remarkable heavy traffic driving at full and limited traffic speeds through out the trip. One in particular that stood out in addition to the crash avoidance was how the X handled merging traffic. The X identified the merge in advance, paced my car to the merging traffic's speed by slowing down, positioned my car correctly to allow the slow traffic to merge from adjacent on-ramp lane into my lane. The 8.4 update prior to the 8.5 is impressive. I assume it is using the same logic as 8.5 but with out the enhanced options to disengage acknowledgements.
pilotSteve
Active Member
@wk057 - yup I can verify almost no difference (improvement) between mild and max max) on my 1200 mile two day road trip. I do (overall) like 2019.8.3 except for the inane insufferable and non-stop need to click on "cancel" with the suggested nonsensical lane changes.
"leave me alone! I'm happy in the left lane. There is nobody in front of me or behind. And there is slower traffic in the right lane".
"leave me alone! I'm happy in the left lane. There is nobody in front of me or behind. And there is slower traffic in the right lane".
scottf200
Well-Known Member
Why don't you turn off NoA then? Your post is confusing. Not sure that 2019.8.5 changes anything regarding the usage of the passing lane.
I want to say even more. The NoA saved me from an accident.
I was driving on a highway on NoA and the car was passing an old lady driving a car in the center lane. I was in the left most lane against a concrete barrier on the left. The lady unexpectedly swerved in my lane and my car moved very close to the concrete barrier, and immediately slowed down and also started flashing the warnings for an immediate takeover. It is very much possible if not on NoA I would have reacted late and potentially overcorrected the car into the concrete barrier. But on NoA it was a scare and nothing else. So I consider that money I paid for EAP were well spent already.
In the past I had one more case when collision prevention system helped to avoid an accident in my Model 3.
Just completed two four hour drives on 19.8.5, from Northern NJ to Annapolis, MD, and then the return. Overall impression: very solid.
A couple of notes:
1) Lane changes are smoother, and I have increased confidence in system's ability to change lanes safely.
2) For first time, I tried Mad Max mode. Not quite as good as I would have liked. Too often it would change lanes, not pass the car in front, and then move back out of passing lane. What was the point of that? I reverted to the next less aggressive setting.
3) Much of the jerkiness of the images of surrounding vehicles is gone, which was also evident in 8.3, but perhaps even more so with 8.5. May be just cosmetic, but progress here inspires confidence.
4) Overall highway driving experience is close to stress-free. Very relaxed and enjoyable. Makes longer-range travel a more attractive option.
5) have learned in passing situations that if car starts to hesitate, bumping the max speed up by 5 mph can address the issue, presumably by giving it more confidence it can safely transition in front of cars approaching from behind.
6) Fly in the ointment. Twenty-five miles short of destination on return got an emergency takeover message, saying four systems were disabled. Pulled off and power-cycled but to no avail. Had to drive the rest *manually*. First world problem. So two steps forward and one step back.
When I paid the $2,000 a couple of weeks ago to upgrade to FSD, I told my wife it was my entertainment budget for the year. Because it would give me a front-row seat (literally) to watch the vehicle's improvements toward self-driving. Given the progress of late on NoA, it's feeling like it may prove to be highly entertaining and money well-spent.
A couple of notes:
1) Lane changes are smoother, and I have increased confidence in system's ability to change lanes safely.
2) For first time, I tried Mad Max mode. Not quite as good as I would have liked. Too often it would change lanes, not pass the car in front, and then move back out of passing lane. What was the point of that? I reverted to the next less aggressive setting.
3) Much of the jerkiness of the images of surrounding vehicles is gone, which was also evident in 8.3, but perhaps even more so with 8.5. May be just cosmetic, but progress here inspires confidence.
4) Overall highway driving experience is close to stress-free. Very relaxed and enjoyable. Makes longer-range travel a more attractive option.
5) have learned in passing situations that if car starts to hesitate, bumping the max speed up by 5 mph can address the issue, presumably by giving it more confidence it can safely transition in front of cars approaching from behind.
6) Fly in the ointment. Twenty-five miles short of destination on return got an emergency takeover message, saying four systems were disabled. Pulled off and power-cycled but to no avail. Had to drive the rest *manually*. First world problem. So two steps forward and one step back.
When I paid the $2,000 a couple of weeks ago to upgrade to FSD, I told my wife it was my entertainment budget for the year. Because it would give me a front-row seat (literally) to watch the vehicle's improvements toward self-driving. Given the progress of late on NoA, it's feeling like it may prove to be highly entertaining and money well-spent.
I have to add: tried it on Saturday through a section where I know maps are bad. It was infuriating, suggesting absolutely nonsensical lane changes. The rest of the drive was pretty good. I wonder if it gets very confused in areas that have close by frontage roads? We have almost none of those here.
This would have nothing to do with NOA, this would be handled by TACC, Autosteer, and AEB. NOA is not a safety or collision avoidance feature. This thread is about NOA specifically.
I use TACC almost all the time and Autosteer when appropriate. They are great features. TACC at least improves safety; I am not so sure about Autosteer. But NOA I find utterly useless and in fact dangerous.
Just completed 180km of driving yesterday following the update. Fantastic experience. Wife and I were in a full blown conversation and even she didn't notice the car navigating in and out of the passing lane to get around slower traffic until I told her that the car was doing it on its own. Nothing to report, essentially, doing it's thing.
For people that know Toronto area - 400S to 401W to 427S to Gardiner E to Exit (Unsupported)
For people that know Toronto area - 400S to 401W to 427S to Gardiner E to Exit (Unsupported)
mtndrew1
Active Member
I tried NoA without confirmation from Gardena CA to La Puente CA and back last night in moderate traffic and it was brilliant overall. The only issue was that it needs to exit the carpool lane one exit earlier.
NoA tried to get out of the carpool lane 0.8 miles from the exit and move across six lanes of traffic which of course didn’t work. Had it left the carpool lane during the previous opportunity it would have been perfect.
On the return trip I turned off HOV and it needed no intervention from me whatsoever, completing the 30 mile drive and coming to a complete stop on its own at the end of the offramp with no other cars.
NoA is still not capable enough to handle my crazy morning commute (Gardena to downtown LA) but regular AP has become quite wonderful for that purpose. It drives like a person now.
Overall this feels like the jump forward we got on 2018.10.4 where overnight you could just tell something massive had happened.
NoA tried to get out of the carpool lane 0.8 miles from the exit and move across six lanes of traffic which of course didn’t work. Had it left the carpool lane during the previous opportunity it would have been perfect.
On the return trip I turned off HOV and it needed no intervention from me whatsoever, completing the 30 mile drive and coming to a complete stop on its own at the end of the offramp with no other cars.
NoA is still not capable enough to handle my crazy morning commute (Gardena to downtown LA) but regular AP has become quite wonderful for that purpose. It drives like a person now.
Overall this feels like the jump forward we got on 2018.10.4 where overnight you could just tell something massive had happened.
Overall, I like NoA, but I need an option to disable just the "shift to the right-most lane" behavior. Our toll roads here are perpetually expanding to six lanes then merging away the right-most lane one at a time, so my only option to prevent constant weaving between lanes is to leave the stalk-confirmation behavior enabled and ignore it for everything that isn't a route-specific lane change requirement.
WVJohn
Member
wk057, I'm with you. The car remains a fabulous car to drive, and the operative words there are "to drive." I use AP only very occasionally (fumbling with the radio, opening a breakfast sandwich, etc.) keeping one hand on the wheel and one eye on the road. The phantom braking is more than annoying, and the seeming erratic driving behavior could (or, may already have) result in an accident. Cruise control is plenty for me, and it absolutely requires you to use turn signals when lane changing around other vehicles, or it too will do some braking for you.
I have had 8.5 on my 3 for about a week and am impressed with improvements to NOA so far. I have had no problems with car turning into adjoining lane of other vehicles reported by others, and have experienced only one or two unexplained, sudden brakings. Lane changes are later than I would prefer when accessing off ramps in heavy traffic, but NOA does get me to the ramps.
One nice benefit of 8.5 for AZ drivers: Autopilot and NOA now play nice with Phoenix area car pool lanes. Previously the car would not cross the solid lines used to separate Phoenix car pool lanes from other lanes.
Do I have great trust in NOA? Not a chance, but I do see progress and actually have enjoyed the past week of usage. However, I am really skeptical about NOA on city streets with stop lights and signs any time soon. Maybe in a couple years. Since the freeway version of NOA is available with EAP only, I probably should have passed on the FSD “sale” last month, but instead bit for both of my Teslas. (If I only had AP, I might feel differently.)
One nice benefit of 8.5 for AZ drivers: Autopilot and NOA now play nice with Phoenix area car pool lanes. Previously the car would not cross the solid lines used to separate Phoenix car pool lanes from other lanes.
Do I have great trust in NOA? Not a chance, but I do see progress and actually have enjoyed the past week of usage. However, I am really skeptical about NOA on city streets with stop lights and signs any time soon. Maybe in a couple years. Since the freeway version of NOA is available with EAP only, I probably should have passed on the FSD “sale” last month, but instead bit for both of my Teslas. (If I only had AP, I might feel differently.)
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My experience is somewhere in the middle. I got the 19.8.5 update late last week, and drove from Boston to New York and back over the weekend. Unfortunately I missed the customize menu when I got the update, and assumed I hadn’t yet received the “change lanes without confirmation” update, so didn’t turn it on.
But the confirmation-required NoA operation was generally good, with some annoyances but no significant problems like wk057 and others reported.
Good:
- generally smooth operation, especially regarding when to move left to pass cars and when to move back
- when changing lanes, the car adjusted speed up or down to achieve a good window of opportunity
- red line came up and the car waited or sped up if someone was in or near my blind spot
Annoying:
- sometimes wanted me to move lanes “to follow route” when lane change wasn’t necessary as there was no impending exit or split
- occasionally wanted me to move to the passing lane despite being only 2 or 3 miles from my exit in the middle lane of a 3-lane highway with the car in front of me only a few mph below my set speed
- a couple of slight braking incidents when I was passing a car to my right, as if my car thought the other was going to merge
- one fairly hard phantom brake in front of an overhead bridge, but that could be EAP rather than NoA
- and as usual, driving below normal traffic speed when navigating interchanges, and not inspiring full confidence that it was entering a couple such turns tight enough
I told it to ignore lane change suggestions a number of times, and took over from it on a few interchanges and construction zones. I also goosed the go pedal a few times to accelerate lane changes, or just took over and did them myself when the road was busier. But on the whole it felt much improved and made my drives easier. I wish I’d taken a closer look at the controls and tried out the new without-confirmation operation.
But the confirmation-required NoA operation was generally good, with some annoyances but no significant problems like wk057 and others reported.
Good:
- generally smooth operation, especially regarding when to move left to pass cars and when to move back
- when changing lanes, the car adjusted speed up or down to achieve a good window of opportunity
- red line came up and the car waited or sped up if someone was in or near my blind spot
Annoying:
- sometimes wanted me to move lanes “to follow route” when lane change wasn’t necessary as there was no impending exit or split
- occasionally wanted me to move to the passing lane despite being only 2 or 3 miles from my exit in the middle lane of a 3-lane highway with the car in front of me only a few mph below my set speed
- a couple of slight braking incidents when I was passing a car to my right, as if my car thought the other was going to merge
- one fairly hard phantom brake in front of an overhead bridge, but that could be EAP rather than NoA
- and as usual, driving below normal traffic speed when navigating interchanges, and not inspiring full confidence that it was entering a couple such turns tight enough
I told it to ignore lane change suggestions a number of times, and took over from it on a few interchanges and construction zones. I also goosed the go pedal a few times to accelerate lane changes, or just took over and did them myself when the road was busier. But on the whole it felt much improved and made my drives easier. I wish I’d taken a closer look at the controls and tried out the new without-confirmation operation.
I've had similar negative experiences too. Someone is going to get injured with this. My car twice, tried to cut into a transport trailer it was passing.......
scottf200
Well-Known Member
X 100D AP2 MCU1 2017 so no steering wheel vibration for lane change notification. It only had msgs and a chime.
I received 2019.8.5 around dinner time. Went for a test run after that (it was dark) on a 6 lane (3x2) highway for about 8 miles each direction.
It worked perfectly. I started in the right lane after the car merged on the highway then based on my speed it methodically moved to the left most 'passing' lane to match my speed setting. After getting to my speed and with the center lane clear it moved right to the center lane stating it was exiting the 'passing' lane. When I was about 1.5 miles away from the off ramp it methodically changed lanes to get into the rightmost lane and took the off ramp. It worked exactly the same/correct on the way back.
It moved around cars and waited to pass them before changing lanes exactly as I would. Obviously, it was only 16 miles and two off ramps but worked flawlessly in this test.
I received 2019.8.5 around dinner time. Went for a test run after that (it was dark) on a 6 lane (3x2) highway for about 8 miles each direction.
It worked perfectly. I started in the right lane after the car merged on the highway then based on my speed it methodically moved to the left most 'passing' lane to match my speed setting. After getting to my speed and with the center lane clear it moved right to the center lane stating it was exiting the 'passing' lane. When I was about 1.5 miles away from the off ramp it methodically changed lanes to get into the rightmost lane and took the off ramp. It worked exactly the same/correct on the way back.
It moved around cars and waited to pass them before changing lanes exactly as I would. Obviously, it was only 16 miles and two off ramps but worked flawlessly in this test.
Big annoying bug still: if the map is wrong so it thinks there is a lane change needed, and you cancel, it just keeps insisting more and more that you need the lane change. This really should result in some feedback. 'Hmm, someone canceled six lane changes in a row to follow the route - maybe my maps are wrong'
Finally got 2019.8.5 on my S last night. I tried it on my commute this morning. My experience was about the same as previous versions of NOA going back to the intial version. It completely failed to merge onto the highway (after engaging on the on-ramp). It dove into an emergency pull-over thinking it was my exit -- the kind that's surrounded by concrete barriers and is only about 5 car lengths long. I quickly took over and re-engaged to see if it could make the actual exit and it couldn't do it. It sort of veered back and forth in a very confused way making me appear drunk, at which point I took over.
So, still useless for me.
So, still useless for me.
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