Navigation Improvements?

[grayguy]

No cannot trust the Google maps for traffic. I have learned to trust Waze.

Google Maps Navigation (not offered by Tesla) is the culmination of Google Maps data with Waze data (they've owned Waze for a while, and you'll see "reported via Waze") for incidents reported from Waze users.

Some people confuse the Google map display on the Tesla navigation with Google Maps Navigation. They are not related other than the fact that both Tesla and Google use Google maps as the map image for their navigation.

It's interesting that Waze has stuck around and kept so many active users after being integrated into Google Maps, but I suppose that's a good thing. It just keeps improving the accuracy of Google Maps Navigation. Now, if we could only get Tesla to integrate with Android Auto and Apple CarPlay. That way we could use the display for navigation rather than our phones. Not to mention being able to use Spotify, Google Play Music, Apple Music, etc. *Sigh*

 

[bob_p]

While Tesla hasn't said anything about this, they must have plans to make some major improvements in the navigation software, since FSD will rely on the navigation routing - and relying on the out-of-date Navigon/Garmin data won't work with FSD, which really needs up-to-date maps that contain recent road changes.

Because of the up-to-date map requirement, wouldn't be surprised to see the navigation computation shift to a cloud server, and have the turn list downloaded to the car, similar to what is currently done between the Navigon routing software and the Google maps display.

 

[dhh12]

I always wondered why it was so bad and that is the reason - they just use the Google map not the Google data. Hard to believe how a great company can have the worst traffic info and routing ever. Just put waze on the car as an app and call it a day.

 

[msnow]

I always wondered why it was so bad and that is the reason - they just use the Google map not the Google data. Hard to believe how a great company can have the worst traffic info and routing ever. Just put waze on the car as an app and call it a day.

Not defending Tesla however whatever solution they choose has to not only be cloud based (like Google) but also local if, for example, you're out of cell range. That's why they use Navigon/Garmin for turn-by-turn. They should have figured this all out after 5 years though.

 

[bob_p]

When the first Model S went into production in 2012, Tesla cobbled together Navigon software/navigation data with Tesla user interface software and the Google maps display (including satellite and real-time traffic) to get a fast time-to-market navigation system. While this system provided the basic navigation features, with the Google satellite maps on the 17" display, the system looked fantastic.

With Tesla's relatively small software team (at least at that time), it would have been difficult for Tesla to implement their own navigation software system, so integrating existing pieces, and focusing on the user interface/display allowed them to quickly provide functionality and get the Model S out with navigation support. That was a reasonable trade-off for the first production cars.

5 years later, we've seen very few changes in the navigation software. The primary feature added is the Trip Planner -Tesla's software running on the console processor, that helps in mapping out routes and charging stops.

We still lack many obvious features - waypoints, route customization, warnings about upcoming traffic restrictions, ... - features that were in my 2007 Lexus.

What's disappointing is that Tesla hasn't invested much effort in adding that missing functionality over the last 5 years - and now that FSD is approaching, it's pretty clear the current navigation system won't be good enough.

Since Tesla doesn't cache the Google maps in the car, spending a lot of software effort in supporting offline navigation really won't have much benefit - because while the car's route could be calculated in the car, the driver will not be able to see the route on the console display. The upcoming map fragment will be displayed on the dashboard, but without Internet access, the console maps will be blank, except showing the navigation routing line.

If using a cloud server for navigation solves the up-to-date map challenge, requiring Internet access to do the routing may be a reasonable trade-off.

At some point, Tesla will have to indicate their plans on improving the navigation software - which should be in the next 12-24 months, in parallel with the FSD development.

 

[grayguy]

Tesla doesn't need to reinvent the wheel and try to come up with a solution that Google has already invested billions of dollars, thousands of employees and many years of development getting right. For a long time now, phone users have been able to download Google Maps and Navigation data for offline viewing and routing. In a car system, you could easily cache an entire region. There are no technical limitations at play here.

It also makes a lot of sense (from the customer's protective) to allow the customer to use the software solution they prefer and use with their phones (Android Auto and Apple CarPlay), if they should want that. Many auto companies support those standards. The Chevy Bolt supports both. The "Apps" tab on our Tesla screens has been pretty lonely for a number of years.

 

[chillaban]

Tesla doesn't need to reinvent the wheel and try to come up with a solution that Google has already invested billions of dollars, thousands of employees and many years of development getting right. For a long time now, phone users have been able to download Google Maps and Navigation data for offline viewing and routing. In a car system, you could easily cache an entire region. There are no technical limitations at play here.

It also makes a lot of sense (from the customer's protective) to allow the customer to use the software solution they prefer and use with their phones (Android Auto and Apple CarPlay), if they should want that. Many auto companies support those standards. The Chevy Bolt supports both. The "Apps" tab on our Tesla screens has been pretty lonely for a number of years.

Except when you are a competitor to both Google and Apple, everything you mentioned requires licensing deals — you need Google to grant you licenses to use Android Auto and Google Maps's offline and navigation data. You need Apple to grant you CarPlay licensing to be a supported head-end unit.

Tesla unfortunately is not known to be a friendly partner with either company, so instead of technical limitations you are left with insurmountable legal limitations.

 

[D.E.]

Why doesn't the Tesla download the maps for a trip while it has WiFi? Maps shouldn't consume that much memory. Home surrounding maps and maps to all in the contacts list would be a good start.

I understand Internet radio is included in the Tesla purchase price. How does that work if not within range of WiFi?

If the Tesla links to my cell, can it tether and get updated map info that way?

 

[Snowstorm]

This is less about tech but business and licensing terms with the other players. Google and Apple would likely not let Tesla use their services on friendly terms as they are competitors now in many areas. Tesla likely got away with it when they first started as a cute start up that Google would want to support, but now they are large and have same ambitions in autonomous vehicles, I won't be surprised that Google maps disappear entirely when their current licensing term is up.

 

[msnow]

Why doesn't the Tesla download the maps for a trip while it has WiFi? Maps shouldn't consume that much memory. Home surrounding maps and maps to all in the contacts list would be a good start.

I understand Internet radio is included in the Tesla purchase price. How does that work if not within range of WiFi?

If the Tesla links to my cell, can it tether and get updated map info that way?

Internet radio works off of wifi and/or cell. You you don't have either connection you don't get internet radio.
Yes it can connect to your phone.

 

[grayguy]

This is less about tech but business and licensing terms with the other players. Google and Apple would likely not let Tesla use their services on friendly terms as they are competitors now in many areas. Tesla likely got away with it when they first started as a cute start up that Google would want to support, but now they are large and have same ambitions in autonomous vehicles, I won't be surprised that Google maps disappear entirely when their current licensing term is up.

That is not at all in line with Google's modus operandi with much more significant competitors than what Tesla represents. I can't think of a single example in which Google had shunned a competitor in one area from licensing anything. Can you?

Apple is orders of magnitude more significant as a competitor, and Google has never pulled a product from iOS, not supported iPhones or Safari, etc. The same might not be true for the inverse, but neither of these situations really have anything to do with supporting CarPlay or Android Auto. Car manufactures with hundreds of not thousands more cars on the road than Tesla support both platforms. The licensing can't be much of an economic factor.

Logically, this all seems like Tesla not interested in supporting customer desires in favor of a closed platform. I'd be okay with that if Tesla was innovating on this front and/or providing a platform and new apps that competed with those platforms.

 

[bob_p]

When I purchased our late 2012 S P85, the premium sound upgrade was supposed to include "on board music storage" - which did not make it into the early software releases.

At some point, I believe Tesla (Musk?) made a statement that they would not provide on board music storage (it's easy to do with USB devices) and would instead use the extra on board storage for offline map storage.

Which also does not appear to be happening, since the Google satellite data is being refreshed over the internet, sometimes showing large blank gray squares.

 

[msnow]

When I purchased our late 2012 S P85, the premium sound upgrade was supposed to include "on board music storage" - which did not make it into the early software releases.

At some point, I believe Tesla (Musk?) made a statement that they would not provide on board music storage (it's easy to do with USB devices) and would instead use the extra on board storage for offline map storage.

Which also does not appear to be happening, since the Google satellite data is being refreshed over the internet, sometimes showing large blank gray squares.

Well, it's possible the on board storage holds the Garmin/Navigon map database used by the navigation system. I may have read this in a @wk057 post a couple of years ago.

 

[daikonv]

For over a week, the I5 in Portland has been closed due to construction. Google maps on my phone and Waze know that the section of highway is inaccessible and routes me a different way. The Tesla navigation has been trying to route me through the closed section of the highway. So while that construction is ongoing, I can't rely on the navigation at all. On top of that, it has never routed me around traffic.

 

[hpartsch]

For over a week, the I5 in Portland has been closed due to construction. Google maps on my phone and Waze know that the section of highway is inaccessible and routes me a different way. The Tesla navigation has been trying to route me through the closed section of the highway. So while that construction is ongoing, I can't rely on the navigation at all. On top of that, it has never routed me around traffic.

I feel your pain. I hardly ever use my navigation in my Tesla. Imagine it routing you to the incorrect service center location, months after they moved. You'd think Tesla would want to improve this. With all the data they are getting -- it doesn't seem like they are making any big improvements in the nav.

 

[bob_p]

Well, it's possible the on board storage holds the Garmin/Navigon map database used by the navigation system. I may have read this in a @wk057 post a couple of years ago.

Part of the on board storage is used for the Garmin/Navigon navigation data.

When the first orders for the Model S were placed, in addition to using the on board storage for navigation data, Tesla also promised to provide some of that storage for use by the media player for songs - included with the Premium Sound upgrade.

A feature they later withdrew. It seems unlikely the Garmin data has grown much in size since 2012 - though with inexpensive USB memory devices, there really isn't a need for on board music storage...

Tesla could be significantly more intelligent about the use of on board navigation/map storage. Instead of storing the entire Garmin/Navigon map database for the continent (US cars likely have US/Mexico/Canada), the software could store the map data needed by the car for the surrounding region (500 mile radius?) and access a cloud server to download additional map data when a route was being planned outside of the nearby region.

Doing this would significantly reduce the amount of storage for the map data, freeing up space for other usage. Plus, if the map data is reduced, that could enable distribution of more frequent map updates, to help keep the "offline" navigation maps more up to date (instead of typically being 1 to 2 years out of date).

Plus, with additional free on board storage, the software should store the Google map data for the surrounding region, and only update those map fragments when needed (when there are road changes, which don't happen that often, and only affect a very, very small percentage of the map data).

Though... I suspect that to support FSD, Tesla could shift to using a cloud server for calculating the navigation route - so FSD always has up-to-date maps, completely avoiding the challenge of keeping the on board maps up to data in all cars.